nobledreamer posted a very nice link to another site that showed the results of a recent poll. Over 56% of U.S. citizens, when asked what they were going to do in response to the 2012 Diaspora Tax Wars, replied, “Nothing, how will they find me?” That is pretty consistent with my informal queries to my friends and family in my host country. My answer to this is, “Oh, my fellow Americans, let me count the ways.”
Why? Well, let us all take a moment to salute Technology. Governments have always had a hard time tracking people once they left their country of origin but today technology is their new best friend. Have a look at your U.S. passport, watch them swipe it when you enter the U.S., watch them look at their computer screens before they nod and let you enter. Behind all that are huge databases which are not that much trouble to build and maintain these days. Storage is cheap. Searching is easy – you can do it with a few simple commands.
Outside the U.S. other countries are implementing or updating their people tracking technology. On the EU side is something called the Schengen Information System (new version coming on-line in 2013). Today, I am the proud holder of a new biometric 10-year French residency permit with a nifty little chip on it. This is an EU standard imposed on the member-states. Pretty soon anywhere I go in Europe all they will have to do is read my little card and they’ll know a lot about me. As these systems come on-line they will become cheaper and easier to implement and well within the reach of smaller countries with smaller budgets.
From there it becomes much simpler to cross-check information. Databases can be linked or the data can just be dumped into a file and shared with others. Privacy laws in many countries, in my view, are just speed bumps to slow them down – I sincerely doubt that it will stop them for long.
Within my lifetime I believe that there will be such systems in almost every developed country. I believe as well that most states or super-states will share citizen and migrant information with other states because they will see the benefit. All countries, for example, are interested in stopping illegal immigration but today it’s hard to separate the citizens from the migrants (it’s not like we carry tattoos on our foreheads proclaiming our citizenship and our residency status). It will be so much easier to manage us once there are citizen databases, migrant databases and biometric passports that can track the movement of people from one country to another.
The only way to hide once these systems are on-line is to go to a country, live in a rural area and never EVER go anywhere or do anything public (like buy property, pay taxes, have a bank account or start a business).
I’ll admit that it’s an option, but those who go this route will find themselves prisoners in their host countries. Forget globalization, these folks will play no part in it. And that is a hell of a price to pay.
The “do nothing” people need to pull their heads out of the sand and realize that there are really only three realistic options available: comply, renounce or fight.
You know, sometimes I wonder if we were all be microchipped at birth in 50 years with our citizenship status and later with tax details, family status, profession and so on. This is the way that things seem to be going. To get my latest EU passport I had to also give biometric finger and thumb prints which are stored on the chip. I believe that I read that retinal scanning may be introduced within ten years as well.
Canadian expats still have some stealthy options such as NEXUS cards and enhanced drivers licenses, and these are attractive to someone at my age. However I can not see my own future.
But, it is safe to predict, that confronting this issue,
through renunciation or becoming compliant will be more expensive and difficult
There has been at least 2 times in 20 yars that the DOJ has gotten in contact with me through my parents in America. No, I never did anything wrong. Even when they were transitioning to a new city with a new address, they DOJ knew where they were, even though they had not submitted any address yet changes yet.
I think it’s a little funny how Americans are privacy-conscious like they are, almost to the point where it makes their own lives difficult. On my BR drivers license, I have a document number issued by the state, and my TAX ID, and my parents’ names. I remember how Americans were up in arms about having a tax id on their drivers license. For me, my BR drivers license is my favourite, most versatile document that I use for almost everything here.
I don’t think technology is so bad. In the case here, it helps them collect taxes, so I can understand that. But this is one “pillar” of why I want to renounce: The brazilian government is an expert at taking my money, so I pay a lot here. I don’t want to have to spend hours filing zero returns to a country that doesn’t spend the equivalent amount of time on me! It’s a big waste of my time. The other main pillar is.. of course. being told “No! you are American”
The big one here for a lot of my friends who were born in Canada to US parents is how they will find them.
I have been forthright in telling them that they are technically a ‘US Person” but their response has always been….”they will never ever find me”…that may be true for the short term…but who knows.
Are birth certificates in Canada a public record? I mean, do you have to be the person or the person’s parents to acquire them. I ask because in several countries like Italy, for example, birth certificates are public records and anyone can request a copy. So unless the US government manually goes through all of the birth certificates on file for the past 100 years in Canada to search for US-born parents, I don’t really understand either how they will be caught.
Not sure about other countries but I do know that France keeps pretty good records and they do care a LOT about where your parents (or you) were born.
There was a law passed a few years ago that required everyone getting or renewing a French identity card to provide proof of citizenship and if the person was born in a foreign country he or she had to come up with not only the birth certificate (or certificate of naturalization) but also proof of parental citizenship. This caused problems for DSK’s wife who was furious and for this poor fellow, François Werckmeister. He was born in Switzerland, lived all his life in France, thought he was French and then found out at the age of 56 that he is actually German. You can read about it here:
http://www.lepost.fr/article/2008/05/05/1189554_a-56-ans-cet-alsacien-se-rend-compte-qu-il-est-sans-papier.html
I think this kind of thing will become more and more common. The laws that are written against irregular migration (Alabama is a great example) don’t just impact migrants, they also impact citizens. They mean that citizens need to able to prove at the drop of a hat (or a routine traffic stop) that they are actually citizens of the country they are circulating in. This means identity cards for just about everybody – how else will you sort them out? Folks have floated this in the States and I personally think that they will win one of these days. Another liberty lost in the name of stopping terrorism/illegal immigration/tax evaders you name it.
Nuts didn’t finish my thought.
So France has databases that would allow them to extract all persons born in a particular place like, say, the US. It would be very easy for them to extract all the persons in France born in the US and turn that over to the US gov who can then match that list against those who have renounced. And then you match it against IRS records. Very simple. Only thing stopping them would be privacy laws and a desire to protect their own citizens.
Did François Werckmeister ever get his papers? I can’t find anything newer than 2008 on the subject. I think that a similar problem exists (or existed) in my country (Italy) for older people born in the northern part of the country that used to be Austrian and became Italian after the First World War.
Also, I just looked up DSK’s wife and was surprised to find out that she is a French-American.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Sinclair
I was just thinking about the potential for a diplomatic conflict that could occur due to FBARs and reporting joint accounts. Considering the following people:
Alma Adamkiene (Wife of Valdas Akamkus, former President of Lithuania)
Queen Noor of Jordan (Born in the US)
Prince Albert of Monaco (IRS could argue that he is actually an American as well!)
I bet that the IRS has stayed as far as way as possible from demanding FBARs from these people. Only the little guys can’t resist.
@Don – Good question. I couldn’t find a follow-up but I sure hope they fixed it. Poor guy.
I think you’re right about the IRS being very careful with the duals. All those people you mention would make a huge stink (and the countries to which they belong) if the IRS went after them. Talk about a diplomatic mess.
Problem of proving citizenship is not confined to Europe (though as you point out it is greatly exacerbated by all that territory that changed hands in the 20th century) the U.S. has the same problem. Check out this guy, an American who found out at age of 95 that he’s actually a Canadian. 🙂
http://tdn.com/news/state-and-regional/washington/article_d99ac112-5017-11e0-b925-001cc4c002e0.html
And in my family we had an elderly family member who born in a territory that was not officially a part of the US at that time and he had no birth certificate. Couldn’t prove he was born at all much less where. 🙂 Because of this they wouldn’t give him a US passport at first and his senator had to intervene. It was surreal. We laughed about it at the time but after doing some research I’m not laughing anymore.
@Victoria, my parents’ names are on all of my documents (ID card, workers card, drivers license, you name it. I think it’s a latin custom, but who knows how it can be “weaponised” against people.
This was an interesting thread to read for me. I think the questions begs “Why is citizenship such a big deal?” It looks like there is way too much importance placed on it.
In Werkmeisters case, it looks like French bureaucrats just trying to make life difficult (HAh, I was shocked I could read and still understand most of the article.)
@geeez – That’s really interesting. Do you know why they do that (parent’s names on documents)?
I know that when I went to apply for a marriage license here in France I was asked for a lot of information about my parents including their professions which I thought was strange. Local custom, I thought, but there must be a reason for it.
Citizenship is an endless source of fascination for me. It’s important because it governs “who has a say” and “who gets what.” A guy named Appadurai had some interesting remarks about that.
Bravo! I’m glad you could read the article. I’m not trying to make anyone read French if they don’t want to but it’s a real pleasure to find people who DO want to. 🙂
@Victoria, Petros said the rules are always to provide links. So some links from Mr. Appadurai would be appreciated 🙂
You bet. I’d actually recommend two books that I think give real insight into citizenship from a rather oblique angle.
The first is Arjun Appadurai’s Fear of Small Numbers: An Essay on the Geography of Anger.
http://www.amazon.com/Fear-Small-Numbers-Geography-Franklin/dp/0822338637
The second is Peter Peter Geschiere The Perils of Belonging
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Perils+of+Belonging
I liked them so much I wrote a two part review for the Flophouse
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.com/2011/08/fear-of-small-numbers-globalization-and.html
which will give you a feel for his argument. I particular like this quotation from Appadaurai about the “original sin” of all nation-states:
“No modern nation, however benign its political system and however eloquent its public voices may be about the virtues of tolerance, multiculturalism, and inclusion, is free of the idea that its national sovereignty is built on some sort of ethnic genius.”
Victoria,
After reading through your comments, I am very much appreciative that you are blogging here, as well as at your Flop House blog. I don’t know how you do it?! Every thing I write is a drudgery of effort, but I feel I have to! 🙂 Wished this was more natural for me, as it seems for you.
As for the 3 options that you list, in the original blog, I too think that “hiding out” and hoping for no discovery is quickly becoming an unviable option, unless you want to join the ranks of the real underground.
In the short term, you might still be ok with the “do nothing” approach, but eventually the Headinthesander will have a decision forced on them by the changing environment. You look how much data mining has exploded in the past few years, and the continued exceptional growth in surveillance and technology, and if you don’t think that they can finally put it all together and find you, you are just kidding yourself.
It is going to catch up to you, and I don’t mean that as a fear mongering statement, but rather just the obvious end state of the trends underway.
The IRS might be lagging behind Google in knowing everything about you, but they will certainly catch up. Heaven knows what the NSA and the entire US Top Secret Security Complex already has on you.
I don’t think any of us really realise how massive Top Secret America is now, and if you haven’t seen this, I highly recommend it.
Frontlines Top Secret America.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/
Immigration records and IRS data match ups are a Shulman wet dream, and they will surely do it if it isn’t already done!
Remember Shulman is wanting a real time automatic taxing system where he takes away all pretenses of a voluntary system. Easier for us to comply, but the choice is removed entirely.
http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/IRS-Commissioner-Doug-Shulman-Real-Time-Tax-System-60702-1.html
Then of course, A world wide bank tax data reporting mechanism via FATCA and DATCA is already underway, and I doubt we will derail it. I am sure most of you have read this recent story.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/obama-burdens-banks_616738.html?nopager=1
SOPA / PIPA with information censorship might have been slowed down momentarily, but it will slip its way back into legislation, mark my words.
Coming back to the options a person has, I probably will not relinquish (like that word better than renounce) my Citizenship, but I can not criticize others who do. I totally understand why they might. There might come a time when I have to give it serious consideration.
In the meantime, I am in the camp of comply and fight! If by no other way, than by spreading the word of the continued erosion of US citizen liberties. I have no idealist expectations of any results, but I look at Roger and his mission on Citizenship taxation, and I am inspired to plod on.
The US homeland is slowly eroding from the “Land of the free and home of the brave” to the “Land of the non willfully compliant, and home of the sloganeering fearful.” Very sad to watch and experience, and I should do my part to slow up what may be inevitable.
@ Anyone…
I had a query from a person who, late last year, attended the same information session as I did re estate planning for disabled members of our families. I raised the issue of RDSPs for ‘US person’s in Canada at this information session. She approached me at at the end of the session, asking further questions about the RDSP, as she I guess thought me a knowledgeable sort. This person phoned me this afternoon to get more information about financial institutions offering RDSPs and I sent her a link by email.
As I was aware that she works for a small private investment company, I mentioned to her (again) that if she had any clients seeking advice on RDSPs, TFSAs, RESPs, it would be great if she could advise them they are wonderful investment vehicles for Canadians, but not for those considered ‘US persons’ in Canada or dual citizens — that perhaps she could suggest they needed to get good advice on how these work for US persons and mention that it would be in their interest to looking into the consequences of their US status in Canada.
She was really offended at this — said that everyone should be aware of anything regarding their citizenship — it wasn’t someone else’s responsibility, equating it to the tsunami in Japan, where people didn’t get to high ground in time when they were warned. I swear these types are the same ones who would walk by an accident victim in need of emergency care as they would be a too much a bother. It’s a hard haul, this story of ours, but we can’t give up!
When there is money to be made, full disclosure is at risk!
Profits come from informational imbalances, and that’s just the way it works. You probably tweaked her conscious a bit, when she knew if she provided that type of information for her clients she might not get as many. Maximizing sales is what it is all about, and buyer beware.
That is why I never take the advice of a financial adviser or investment firm. Their self interest trumps mine.
I think Just Me is right. Think of all the businesses and organizations that would suffer (will suffer in my view) if this information gets out. Investment brokers, real estate agents, immigration services (We can help you get that Green Card!) and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Victoria, hmm.. I think it could dent it just a little bit, but not much. I think the US has become the Mecca for poor people to mooch off of their food stamp welfare system. It’s no conspiracy that even Obama (Obummer) has an aunt and an uncle who are both collecting Welfare.
All you have to do to see this is compare the estimated number of illegals to number of job visas that are granted. Really, someone who is poor, or almost poor, has nothing to lose by going to America.
My dad retired and now works at a large store. He said that he has to learn Spanish because every single day there are people who come in that speak no English. (I think my dad is a lazy monolingual Ameircan that will never learn, but anyway…)
America has become a huge mess. My parents don’t even live in an area with many Hispanics.
There’re are many practical peaceful (non-destructive) solutions to all of this — like adopting a treaty with Switzerland like Europe did, or taxing at the source. But that’s not in the American “character” because they always have to “pick a fight” and make everything difficult.
What America WILL succeed at, however, is alienating a few million expats that will renounce/relinquish. To them, that’s nothing. To me, that’s OK.. but I will see to it that they NEVER benefit from ANY of my economic activity here.
Maybe I’m naive and/or complacent, but I really think that ‘accidental Americans’ with no paper trail connecting them to the US can afford to ignore this issue. Particularly since the (underfunded, understaffed, shrinking) IRS is aware that penalties like FBAR fines aren’t collectable. I just can’t see them expending effort and creating an international incident over the collection of zero revenue.
To a broken man on a Halifax pier.
I sincerely hope you are right. I do think your risk right now is very low, and so understand the complacency. It all depends on how desperate the US gets for revenue. Let’s all hope that reason and logic prevail and they let this go.
PS… Love your handle! but not the fate it implies 🙂
@ JustMe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-PQbdmQRwc
He died far too young.
‘Barrett’s Privateers’ was the kind of background soundtrack of the Canadian Army for, oh, a generation or so. I was told a story years ago about one of the RCR battalions training with the USN on amphibious landings, using an American ship. Before they landed they sang many hearty choruses of BP: “God damn them all! I was told we’d cruise the seas for American gold, fire no guns, shed no tears!” which predictably enough bewildered the American crew.
That is GREAT! I love it. Thanks for sharing the reference! I bet it did bewilder the American crew!
@A broken man on a Halifax pier
I agree. If you are not born in the United States and they currently don’t know about you, then I would just ignore this problem until they find you. As far as I am concerned that is an enviable place to be.
@geees,
Why does Brazil require that your parents names appear on all of your legal documents – a requirement that is not common in other Latin Countries? I remeber when I lived in Brazil is seemed so strange (and sensless) that even when I registered at a hotel anywhere in Brazil I not only had to supply my name, but the names of my father and mother as well. I used to ask, why could that possibily be of interest or importance to anyone since they have both been deceased for over 30 years?
The only explanation I ever heard that seemed to make some sense was Brazil was colonized by the Portuguese, and in Portugal there were only a relatively few surnames. The result was that there were many different people whose names were identical. So the only way to really identify which “Joao da Silva” (pardon that I left out the accents) you really were was to also supply the names of both your father and mother That narrowed it down to which of the thousands of persons with the nameJoao da Silva you really were. This seemed to make sense so I accepted it and faithfully supplied the names of both my father and mother everytime a registered in a hotel in Brazil or did anything else of an official nature.
In Spanish-speaking countries they do something similar, but different. You always have two last names. The first is your father’s family name and the second is your mother’s maiden name. In alphebetizing lists of names, they are always in the alphabetical order of your father’s last name (Apellido Paterno) with your mother’s last name (apppelio materno) following it as sort of a suffix. But it is all part of your legal last name and in some Spanish-speaking countries, but not all, it is obligatory that you have and use both on all official documents. This differenciates you as Juan Gonzalez Martinez from Juan Gonzalez Perez.
@Roger, my understanding is the same – it is a way to identify people. I think they’ve been doing it for long, that it’s just become the “way” hey do it now, even though some Brazilians have some laughable very creative names. As far as alphabetizing goes, all the Brazilians I know do it by the first name, but I don’t know if the government does it by last name, which is the father’s surname.
I thought about applying to change my name when I go in with the naturalization paperwork, but as my wife pointed out, my son’s birth certificate has my last name already. I think it would be very James Bond’ish to have multiple LEGALLY ISSUED passports with different names, but I bet it would draw too much suspicion.
There are some people who are proud of their family history, so they have up to 10 names: “João silva perreira comargo fuentes johnson santos magalhães pinto alves” – this is fictitious, but I have seen names like this before. João is a rare name here, but not in Portugal.
Ha! Nowadays, you will spend about 10-15 minutes filling out forms at hotels. The government tracks the statistics so they ask lotsa questions.