Came across the following article today:
Former Canadian Prime Minister John Turner is dual citizen. So too are Canadian politicians: Stephane Dion, Thomas Mulclair, David Alward, and (according to the Government of Canada site) Green Party Leader and MP Elizabeth May was born in the U.S. Why does citizenship matter in the first place? If so, why would anybody remain a citizen of a country that treats its citizens as property to be taxed. Can anybody afford the cost of U.S. citizenship? Interesting article in Account Today about the number of U.S. citizens renouncing:
Renunciations of U.S. citizenship increasing due to confusing messages from the IRS #FBAR #ovdi #FATCA accountingtoday.com/news/Taxpayer-…
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) January 18, 2012
U.S.citizenship has been priced out of the market. We know the costs. What are the benefits? Is it worth it? renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/u-s…
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) January 17, 2012
Here’s another one from yesterday’s Globe:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/harper-and-rae-pile-on-as-mulcairs-dual-citizenship-raises-eyebrows/article2305515/
And another one from yesterday’s National Post:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/17/stephen-harper-needles-ndp-leadership-hopeful-thomas-mulcair-on-dual-citizenship/“In my case, as I say, I am very clear. I am a Canadian and only a Canadian
Steven Harper says he has only one passport and he likes it that way. I, too, have only one passport. It’s Canadian. I have only ever held a Canadian passport. But antagonistic border officials have told me I must get another country’s passport so I can visit my elderly mother.
Harper also says “In my case, as I say, I am very clear. I am a Canadian and only a Canadian” Ditto, Mr. Harper. I, too, “am very clear. I am Canadian and only a Canadian. I just had the misfortune to be born elsewhere. After four decades, that country of my birth is suddenly trying to reclaim me–and my money–which was earned solely in Canada–and taxed here.
Mr. Prime Minister, you need need to stand up for other Canadians who–like you–are “Canadian and only Canadian.” You need to stop the attack by a foreign government on these proud, patriotic and contributing Canadians. And, you need to stop it now.
I can’t quite figure this one out either, if you are a legal permanent resident, what else do you need? (If you don’t like in a deport-happy country like the USA..)
The US Dept of State despises statelessness. I partly understand why because there are some situations that are ****** *p and people can’t get basic documents or services. But someone with perm. residency, I think it’s just so they can assign nationalities to fatality numbers from plane crashes, or for taxation in the case of the US. Seriously, when was the last time you saw statistics like this?:
American – 2
Italian – 20
French – 5
Stateless – 1
Politicians like putting us in groups. If we all could move and * DO* whatever we wanted to, it would equate to pure disaster for politicans because they would not have complete control, which I think frightens them the most.
I think the concept of “citizenship” originated back in Roman times. Since Wikipedia is down, I feel like I have one hand cut off. So I’m presuming that there must have been some great benefits associated with being a citizen. Nowadays, I think the significance has been reduced and it’s just a classification, or a PITA in the case of the US.
@Blaze, why won’t they let you go through the border without a US Passport? Didn’t you relinquish?
That whole situation with the TSA and the scanners has gotten me so paranoid about the USA that I don’t even want to go back there for a visit. My wife doesn’t even have a passport and I’m in no hurry for her to get one either.
@Blaze, Hear! Hear!
@geeeez
Well, The media has been grouping the number of people aboard the Costa Concordia by nationality. I even remember reading a piece in the British press that essentially said: “All Brits rescued”. Shortly afterwards the coverage of the crash is usually no longer even found on the main page, implying indirectly of course that the course was no longer of as much interest to British readers.
@DonPomodoro – I want to highlight the fact that you will never see “stateless” as nationality. That goes against the principles of nationalities, borders, countries, etc..
I just figured out that only Wikipedia English pages are blacked out. HAha, so I looked into the Portuguese version.
Citizenship = the right to have rights with a society.
Also, it started back in Greek times and not Roman times.
@geeeez: Good question. I have the same one. Yes, I believed what the Consulate told me in 1973–that I was renouncing (or maybe the word was relinquishing) my US citizenship.
However, twice at the border (once in 2004 and once in 2011),border officials have noted my American place of birth and have told me I was still a US citizen and should always enter as such. The first time, I questioned that advice and insisted I was Canadian only, while the officer insisted I was a dual. I explained US did not permit dual citizenship in 1973 so I lost my American citizenship then. She continued to challenge this, but did allow me to proceed.
No problems on trips after that until October, 2011. Border Official saw US place of birth. He told me I should get US passport and always enter as US citizen. This time I merely nodded and went on my way. I didn’t have the energy (or courage!) to have that debate again. I don’t know if he entered any information in the data base, but I am concerned about how this might affect me when I try to visit my mother in the spring.
As I’ve said elsewhere (I’m sounding like a stuck record by now), I am terrified to call the Embassy or Consulate to see if I can get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality because I have no record of the conversation I had with them in 1973, I was not given a copy of the form which I signed and I did not receive a CLN then.
A US immigration lawyer in Ontario told me because I don’t have a CLN, I am responsible for filing with IRS. He referred me to a tax lawyer at Deloitte Touche. I think the lawyer’s advice is wrong and I would love to find a lawyer who understood what the situation was forty years ago. I would also love to work cooperatively with others in a similar situation. I have NOT contacted Deloitte.
It’s bizarre–IRS is after expats for not completing forms, yet the Consulate did not give me the form they should have. I wish I could fine them a whopping penalty for the stress this is causing me.
.
Excellent point. The media wouldn’t know how to categorise someone like that. They would probably just be lazy and, in the case of an ex-US citizen, lump them together with the others and not mention it I guess. The only time that you really hear about someone being stateless is say someone from a conflict area or from a newly-formed country, like those without citizenship in Slovenia and the Baltic States whose old supranational citizenship (Yugoslav or Soviet) did not cleanly transfer over to them after the breakup. Latvia even has a special “Non-citizens'” passport for many of the ethnic Russians who are excluded from citizenship and are stateless, which you’ll notice isn’t burgundy like most European ones and has no mention of the EU on the cover:
http://latviaintegration.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/passport.png
For those who can’t access Wikipedia in Portuguese or another language: Yeah, the Romans used citizenship to subdue the local elite. They would conquer a new territory and then integrate the local aristocracy by giving them full citizenship and later on places in the senate. The system was in place until around 200 AD when the Emperor Caricalla made everyone in the Roman Empire a citizen. Historians debate about whether this was a large contributing factors towards the downfall of the Empire since it had been such a stabilising and effective means of control. So, yeah, blame the Romans 🙂
@Blaze, I would just keep going through the border like you’re doing. Every time they say to get a passport, say that you will. That’s probably less confrontational than busting out a CLN, and saying “In your face! I’m not American!!” 🙂
Yeah, with this blog format, we all sound like broken records 🙂
The most organized method is the forum, but I think it will take some people some time to get used to it.
In your case, I think it’s your right to a CLN. Anyone familiar with US immigration laws of the 1970s should know this very quickly because back in those days, you had to renounce US Citizenship. It’s too bad they don’t teach a bit of history to the people working the actual border.
@DonPomadoro
That looks like the UN Travel Document. If they are ethnic Russian, why can’t they get Russian citizenship? Well, I’ll know when Wikipedia comes back up! I doubt a page on Russian citizenship law exists in Portuguese.
The only downside to those travel cards is that they tend to be much more expensive than a passport, and have a validity that is much shorter. I think it’s that way to discourage statelessness as much as possible and to assign people their “classification.”
I think in the case of Russo-Lithuanians, it’s almost a joke. They may not be Lithuanian citizens, but if they go to Germany and get deported, they will end up back in Lithuania. I think in this case, it goes back to history; the Lithuanians don’t want to give them citizenship out of spite of what the USSR did. I’m not sure how it actually affects their lives day-to-day, but if they have this travel document, they are allowed to travel anywhere a Lithuanian can travel.
That preceeding paragraph works for the good and the bad. If Lithuania has a travel embargo against a country, then then the Russo-Lithuanians are prohibited from visiting that country as well, even though they aren’t citizens. This why statelessness to me appears to be quasi-stateless because you have to abide by the rules of the country that issues your documents.
This is why to me — throughout the world except for the USA — citizenship is a very fragil concept and domicile seems to carry much more weight, in all aspects of one’s life.
geeeez wrote: ****** *p
I am trying to figure out whether that was censored by the forum moderators or whether it made it past them unawares.
Mulcair is wrong, in my view, to think that dual citizenship is not a problem. Dual citizenship suggests divided loyalties. The simple thing to do if he wishes to be the Loyal Opposition or to lead Canada as Prime Minister is to renounce his second citizenship. Ordinarily and ideally, dual citizenship would indicate merely the right to live in two countries. But when it concerns a high level position in one country, it is not parochial or insular to oppose dual citizenship, but about loyalty and national security. I disagree with him absolutely. I do not want, e.g., a dual American/Canadian as PM. I do not trust the United States so I don’t want an American prime minister. I could list other countries, but I think my point is clear. When I became a Canadian I wrote in my statement to the State Department:
If this is true for an ordinary citizen, how much for a high level elected government official?
US Embassy actually agrees with us. Here’s what their website says:
______________________________________________________________________
The U.S. Government acknowledges that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance.
______________________________________________________________________
Isn’t that exactly what have been trying to tell them? Like Harper, many of us consider ourselves “Canadian and only Canadian.” Only IRS thinks differently.
And here is what US Embassy says about citizenship:
______________________________________________________________________
In order to lose US citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice and with the intention to give up US citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person’s statements of conduct
_____________________________________________________________________A
Again, exactly what many of us are saying. Of course, then it goes on and talks about the need to meet with Consular Official to relinquish, pay $450, etc.
Here’s the link: http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/dual-citizenship.html
Citizenship is important to me. To me, it’s a contract, a set of rights and obligations, and a commitment. I never wanted to be a dual citizen of any two countries.
I did not have any problems or beefs with the US when I became a citizen of Canada. However, as I did not like the whole idea of dual citizenship, I was quite pleased that I was losing my former citizenship solely for that reason.
It was startling and disorienting to learn recently, after decades, that the US now considers me a dual citizen.
It would be very difficult for me to be a US citizen. For most of my life, it’s been a foreign country … and a foreign country is not a bad thing, it’s just not my country. In fact, I’ve enjoyed my US vacations and the Americans I’ve met when travelling.
But how can I be a citizen of the US when I am 100 percent completely committed to another country? And when I have no I have absolutely no ties to the US? I haven’t even happened to visit there for several years.
Perhaps because I never dealt with the US government before, I’m finding it to be complicated and confusing. Why would I want to spend the rest of my life learning how to deal with the government of a country I have no connection to whatsoever?
I never liked the idea of dual citizenship in theory. Now, unfortunately and very unexpectedly, I am seeing very concrete reasons not to like it.
@Pacfica You’re in good company here!
@Peter, I think this is a good time to create a “quick list” of media outlets to call in the case an American or ex-American- citizen is denied entry into America see aging relatives. I have a grandmother that a bank flat-out stole money from her, but nothing was done until it reached the media. After that, not surprisingly, she got her money back.
If you want, you gather the major border points in Canada, and I’ll focus on the major points of entry from Europe and South America, and Asia.
I also think it reprehensible that someone be scared to visit their relatives in America because they moved abroad. My grandparents are around the age of Blaze’s mother and to think there is a chance that my children willl not be able to visit my grandparents because I decided to move abroad is beyond words for me.
pacifica777, find the immigration law of the time and make a scanned copy (so it won’t fade). If anyone doubts you, show them. I think the year was 1986, but if you acquired citizenship of another country BEFORE this time, you *LOST* US citzenship.
But like I said on other comments here, if you are travelling to the US, the border guards are the lowest on the totem-pole and they usually know no-history, so just tell them you will get a US passport to pass through.
Commmmmmon people’ you know what your rights were in that era — assert them! Don’t roll over and play dead to the IRS. Assert your rights as Canadians! Because at that time, you were NOT American, nor did you have “free” entry to the country without any fear from the US Government. Even when I was a boy, people who dodged the draft were traitors, een though never being called a traitor directly.
Now, tecnically, 3-4 decades later, you are not considered to be a traitor, but the IRS wants a piece. Gimmme a break. Show them the middle finger, please!
@geeeez, I totally agree. But this situation has gotten beyond the ability of our poor citizens. The Canadian government has to step us and say, Hirya, this far and no farther !
@Blaze — are you checking out http://isaacbrockforum.com/ for further discussion?
Last estimate I saw was that there are around 680,000 stateless people in Europe today. The EU is working on it. See the “2006 Convention on the Avoidance of Statelessness in Relation to State Succession.” Kind of a delicate matter since these are often folks who found themselves on the wrong side of a border when territory changed hands.
A couple of links on the Flophouse http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.com/2011/06/pledging-allegiance-path-to-citizenship_04.html
I’ve been debating for months now on whether or not to write a post about it. It’s a very touchy subject and I have a lot of Russian and Eastern European readers.
@petros
Andrew Coyne would agree with you at least in relation to the Prime Minister.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/01/18/andrew-coyne-is-singular-citizenship-too-much-to-ask-of-a-potential-pm/
“Perhaps you will think that is too much to ask of each other. Fine: but is it at least something we could ask of those who seek to lead us? To lead, after all, they must be able to inspire us to follow. To gather consensus, to rally us to difficult tasks, to lift our spirits in times of crisis: all these require a special bond between the leader and the led. A candidate for party leader is expected to give up previous party affiliations. Should it be different for a candidate for prime minister? He asks us to choose him. Is it too much to ask that he choose us?”
It might be worth making some comments on the Coyne article.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/01/18/andrew-coyne-is-singular-citizenship-too-much-to-ask-of-a-potential-pm/#disqus_thread
@geeeez
What I posted wasn’t a UN travel document, since those always have a specific mention of the 1954 Convention on the cover. Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Convention_Travel_Document
If you click on the data page it looks like this is a brave soul who renounced US citizenship and is now stateless.
Those Latvian passports were specially created only for former USSR citizens. The history behind them is complicated and nationality and citizenship is a controversial topic there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_%28Latvia%29
Brave Soul!!? Gorgulski!! He also has the site nostate com. Ahh.. I think he renounced to get 15 minutes of fame on RT.com. He didn’t even have residency and he pulled this stunt. Out of the graciousness of the Slovakian government, they gave him Slovakian documents.
Here is “passport for foreigners” in Brazil:
http://www.dpf.gov.br/servicos/passaporte/passaporte-para-estrangeiro
It’s in Portuguese, but Google translator probably works well.
I’m not really planning on travelling. No desire to. I’m happy where I am. I have Brazilian IDs, drivers license, bank accounts, and more, so having a cancelled US passport doesn’t affect my life.
Never had heard of Gorgulski, but it seems that you’re right about that being a big publicity stunt.
LOVE the police officer in the top right of the link above by the way. Pure class.
@Don, Think about it! The US simply does not want Americans going overseas, to leave “the best country in the world”. I don’t know if it was the original aim of the FACTA, but it sure makes our lives more difficult overseas.
The requirements now either make your life difficult, or you must maintain a permanent “link” with American for the rest of your life (not just through taxes, but that is the only place an American can “invest” their money).
I think most overseas Americans are just putting their heads into the sand, trying to find workarounds to the FACTA and FBARs, but I think they are only setting themselves up for more problems down the line. I’m not taking the chance, I’m cutting the cord.