CanuckDoc has asked me to publicize this:
I thought anybody in the Halifax area should know about the information meeting tomorrow night (Jan 18) arranged by our MP It’s all on her web page: http://meganleslie.ndp.ca/
UPDATE: Please see Canuckdoc’s notes on the meeting.
Sounds fabulous. I wish I was in Halifax. I hope someone will post some of the info here.
I may be interested in a consultation with the lawyer if she is willing to do this.
@blaze I think we need to start gathering people in the same situation together and creating class action law suits against the United States. I have reason to believe that this is necessary. But first we must rally as many people as we can. It will cost less if one law firm does the suit than if each person each has a lawyer. Because what we have here is the United States State Department is in violation of its own laws and constitution.
And I looked at the line up of speakers and these are the kinds of people to help you get into “compliance”: but what about these words written by a Globe and Mail reader (Northernwaters) responding to McKenna’s article:
Hmm…yes…Blair Hodgman… let me think…where do I know that name from….hmmmm….OH YEAH!
Chester NS!!
She is the same one that was trying to get me to do my income tax over again when I was seeking information on renouncing/relinguishing my citizenship!
Because, according to her, you CANNOT renounce or relinguish until a ‘Lawyer” determines that you are compliant…and only a Lawyer will accept the information from your returns that are only done from an Accountant with a PTIN#….thereby ensuring that you do not purger yourself by signing the 8854 (?) form (the exit tax one)…..
Of course she was kind enough to offer up a local Accountant for me so I could spend some additional money to re-due all 6 returns before they would consider moving forward with me! (and this is a cold call folks…they knew nothing of my Accountant or the information on my returns).
I really hope this meeting isn’t a ‘home show’ to get people to use there services to become compliant…or better yet to scare people into the OVDI program.
Sorry…..i know i sound jaded…and i hope there is a positive outcome to this meeting…I am just getting a little tired of looking over my shoulder.
I’ll be in a better mood tomorrow….good nite to all soldiers 🙂
I should point out that, although I do advocate hiring an Accountant with a PTIN#…there are still lots of good Accountants that can do simplified taxes without one. (I have received my fair share of bad information from individuals with valid PTINs).
My previous post was eluding to the fact that I hope this meeting is educational and informative and does not take on the atmosphere of a ‘job fair’ for Lawyers and Accountant(s).
Unfortunatley I have to work to pay more Canadian Tax…so i won’t be there.
Mach7 Interesting to hear your comments.
I have to say, i was also a little distressed to hear the accountant on the radio yesterday saying that people shouldn’t worry because the penalties assigned are not likely to be as high as 50% of ones net worth. I have no intention of paying ANY penalties. I’d just rather avoid having the IRS decide I should.
I am going to the meeting, but your post has already answered one of the questions I was going to ask, or at least i will know what she is going to say. And I have a pretty good idea what the answers to the other ones are. She is a lawyer, so I suppose it is not surprising if she is giving very lawyerly sort of advice.
Aaaargh…… This is like a bad dream.
I will post tomorrow about what happened, but I’m not sure I’ll be reassured by anything I hear tonight!
@Mach7
Your description of your interaction with the lawyer is hilarious. She was probably just saying that in order to cover yourself that you should work only with people with certain qualifications and certifications. But, it is upsetting.
On the issue of the value of the PTIN number:
https://twitter.com/#!/renounceus/status/157989417800302593
This is a comment from an earlier post that I did on this issue at:
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/paid-u-s-tax-preparers-must-register-with-the-irs/
@Canuckdoc
Please do post your report of the meeting.
@Petros, I’m up for a class action law suit. Charge–Isaac Brock warriors!
At the same time, I would like a consultation with a lawyer to determine how I can best confirm that I did relinquish my US citizenship in 1973–as the US Consulate told me and required me to sign a form to that effect.
One of the most chilling things for me is they never gave me their form (Certificate of Loss of Nationality), so now the IRS has the potential to rob me of my l life savings just as I’m approaching retirement because I didn’t file a form with them!
I know there are others at IBS in a similar position, Shall we all approach the Embassy together, should we continue to lie low or should we hire a lawyer together to resolve this?
The IRS can’t get your savings if it is in Canadian banks. At least for now. So just make sure you bring everything to Canada.
Part of their game is scare everyone they can, so that a few will enter the OVD programs and hand their money over voluntarily. As long as you are not handing them your money, they have a much harder time collecting.
@Petros, Thanks Peter. I do understand that, but I still want to get a confirmation that I am NOT a US citizen–as I was told by the Consulate four decades ago. I have had no income or assets in US since leaving in 1970. But according, to info from Canadian Bankers Association, they will require all US persons (I don’t know how they will know that) to provide documentation that they are not citizens.
So, I’m still interested in joining with others who in the 1970s were told they were losing US citizenship by becoming Canadian so we can determine the best way to confirm we did relinquish–and to get our Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Quick notes from the meeting:
From the lawyer:
You can lose your citizen by performing various acts with intent to renounce, including, among others:
!)going in and renouncing at a consul and paying $485 ?CDN
2)if you became a naturalized citizen of another country, and your naturalization included a declaration of giving up other citizenships. In Canada, that is mostly before 1973, but you have to look at the actual piece of paper you signed, which is available from the citizenship office in Canada, to see if it is there. You can’t just go by the date.
3) If you performed other of the specified “acts” ie working a foreign government, etc. you have to prove it was done for the purpose of renouncing US citizenship, which is very difficult to do. You would need a lot of proof to convince them
In order to renounce in the first way, she advises making sure your tax forms have been OK’ed by a “competent tax attorney”. who may but doesn’t necessarily have the PTIN designation. She didn’t say much about how you could tell, but says lots of people doing “international taxes” are not competent. You are not a allowed to have a lawyer with you at the consulate, but she helps people prepare their case.
It can take up to 1 year to get your CLN after renouncing.
The Consulate here is swamped with requests and she (the lawyer) is getting lots of calls from people wanting to renounce.
From the accountant:
There are various amounts, depending on your situation under which you do not need to file tax forms. For single’s it is about $9,500. If you have over $400 self employment income you have to file. If you’ve had any US tax withheld, you need to file.
However, if you never file, your filing never becomes “statute barred”. Which means they could theoretically demand you file 20 years of returns (but they don’t) One you’ve filed a return, they have 3 years to look into it. (except in certain circumstances)
Most canadian residents don’t have problems with tax, they have problems with “information” requirements. FBAR’s of course. TFSA and RESP’s are Trusts and both beneficiary and the contributor need to report, and they need 3520 or 3520A Reasonable cause is available for consideration with all the forms but IRS has not given much guidance about what is reasonable.
Re OVDI the IRS is fear mongering with talk of “criminal prosecution” nobody in the room should worry about it. And most Canadians don’t have tax penalties. However, they are subject to reporting penalties
For those who have lived in a foreign country who are fully compliant with their countries tax laws (need to submit tax forms to prove it) there is a “deal” of only 5% of total assets (nobody has decided if RRSP is included) as long as you have less than $10,000 of US source income. If you have more, the %age goes up
For those who think that penalty is too high and can make a good case for it, the option is to “opt out” after entering, in which case the whole thing is put in front of an IRS auditor, and the penalty can be 0 or lots.
There were lots of questions about “quiet discosures” He was adamant that the IRS has said they will look very unfavourably on them, but nobody really knows what they will do. He was definately NOT recommending it…
The IRS and Immigration so far don’t communicate very well, so not much cases of people being stopped at border for tax problems, but who knows what will happen in future.
Re general stuff: There were probably between 200 and 300 people there. Way more than planners expected. They had to find a second room and there was standing room only. The presenters were expecting to give a short talk, but each of them were talking for 2 hours. Megan Leslie said the Canadian government is trying to do something, but the US is not really interested in listening. The accountant said there will never be a special solution for Canadians. It is a multinational problem, and the only solutions will be international.
I think there were a lot of unhappy people i that room.
Well that is the summary as I remember it and from my notes, but i am tired. If anyone else was there and heard something different, please say so.
2 more things.
The lawyer did not seem to think you need a lawyer to renounce, unless you have particular issues.
The accountant said repeatedly that according to the Canada US tax treaty the CRA will collect tax for the IRA. (Not what I have heard…but that is definately what he said)
For those who have lived in a foreign country who are fully compliant with their countries tax laws (need to submit tax forms to prove it) there is a “deal” of only 5% of total assets (nobody has decided if RRSP is included) as long as you have less than $10,000 of US source income. If you have more, the %age goes up
So basically they are still saying that as long as you are tax compliant with your country, law abiding, and owe no tax….you still have to pay them 5% of your total assets???
Don’t think so….
The accountant said repeatedly that according to the Canada US tax treaty the CRA will collect tax for the IRA. (Not what I have heard…but that is definately what he said)
It is my understanding as well that, through the US-Canada tax treaty, CRA WILL collect tax owing to the U.S. but will NOT collect penalties for filing (FBARs).
Depending on the political shift in the US, this might change the game board regarding our current relations to the United States, FATCA, and other IRS related items.
RON PAUL 2012!
This is from a FACT Sheet provided to constituency offices (and CARP (Canadian Association of Retired Persons) in regard to US tax obligations http://www.carp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/US-Tax-crackdown-misses-target1.pdf :
” * Penalties imposed under FBAR will not be collected by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA): The Canada-United States Income Tax Convention contains a provision which allows for the collection by a country of taxes imposed by the other country, including civil penalties. This provision does not apply to penalties imposed under laws, such as the U.S. Bank Secrecy Act, that impose only a reporting requirement (as opposed to those that impose taxation along with reporting requirements). Also, CRA does not and will not collect the U.S. tax liability of a Canadian citizen if the individual was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose (whether or not the individual was also a U.S. citizen at that time).”
@CanuckDoc and @Mach7 — You both mention IRA, is that a coincidence or did one of these professionals actually refer to IRA (Irish Republic Army or a US Individual Retirement Account or International Reading Association) rather than IRS?
Glad they had a turn-out of more than expected. I think any such forums will find a lot of ‘US persons’ coming to learn. Bravo!
Thank you CanuckDoc, the meeting sounded really interesting, I am so happy there were alot of people that showed up. Maybe more meeting will sprout up all over Canada!! Thanks again!!
A “more original” version of the CARP document link provided by Calgary411 can be found at:
http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/2011-nov-17-davies/
As far as I know, Don Cayo of Vancouver Sun broke the news on Canadian nonenforcement, based on his questioning and an email response from Ministry of Finance in August 2011:
http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/2011-aug-24-cayo/
The essence seems to be that Canada will not enforce:
• FBAR against anyone
• US taxes against anyone who is concurrently a Canadian citizen
Formal discussion of this topic at:
http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/2011-sept-frew/
The bottom line here is….most if not ALL of us are 100% tax compliant.
I can only speak for myself, but all income has been reported, all investments income has been reported down to the penny.
My Accountant, as with most Accountants will go directly to the CRA (with your permission) and gathered all documentation this way. The only additional information might be something that can be claimed down there but not up here.
So…..us collecting additional taxes for most is a mute point.
Therefore the only thing we have to worry about would be penalties…and it seems CRA is not going to collect them, Canadian Citizen OR permanent resident….and that indeed is good news.
Calgary411…i think CanukDoc meant to say IRS not IRA.
I did, you are right, IRS, not IRA, but perhaps it was a “Freudian slip” Another thing he said about CRA collecting for the IRS was that there is speculation that the IRS could get a favourable court ruling in Canada (but whether they would try is another matter)
One of my thoughts as I lay in bed awake much of the night last night, was about the numbers. There are lots of us, and most of the people in the audience were clearly not happy with options put before them. Separately, we are powerless against the IRS. ODVI is asking us to come forward individually and voluntarily surrender. The IRS puts out statistics about the number of “non-compliant” people (read “tax evaders” by anyone who doesn’t know better) We are trying to get our story out by talking to reporters, but there are powerful steriotypes at work in the minds of the American people, who are the only people who have a chance of changing anything. Right now it might be easy for Americans to believe that “all of America’s problems are caused by wealthy tax cheats living overseas and hiding their money in foreign bank accounts”. It is a very common behaviour to want to blame one’s problems on an “other” (i.e. witches, communists, jews, tax-evaders….) rather than look at what is really wrong and make difficult changes.
Right now we are all quietly trying to figure out what we can do as individuals. But there is power in numbers. So what if someday there are rallys in the streets. peaceful protests at US embassies around the world. With people of all ages with signs saying things like “IRS go home – leave my tuition money alone” “We are not tax cheats” etc. If there were large rallies all over the world, it would be harder to ignore us. “Tax cheats” don’t usually rally in the streets.
I don’t think it can happen yet. At the meeting last night I said to the person next to me, “I hope there is a reporter here to see how many people showed up” and her response was “just as long as they don’t take my picture”. Most of the people affected are risk averse, still trying to hide and figure out what to do. But if the IRS makes good on their threats (which I really don’t think they have the resources to do) I can see it coming.
Enough ranting……. get up and go to work so I can make money to report to the IRS…
First they came for the [expats]
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t an [expat]………
…
@Canuck You are right, and that is why I am out in the open to try to gather forces, because it is a hard thing to do when you are trying to hide your identity. Please, gather as many together to Brock by giving them the web address and encouraging people to stick together. Please read the following post that I wrote when I decided to come out of the shadows:
http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/11/15/pillaging-one-person-at-a-time-why-im-coming-out-in-the-open-with-my-fight-against-the-irs/
Wonderfully written. More people need to hear that.
Maybe we need to see if similar meetings can be arranged in other cities. Invite a reporter to come and see the numbers and hear the talk. If what I heard last night is true (and I have reason to believe he knows what he is talking about), we need headlines like “IRS claims 5% of wealth of tax-compliant dual nationals overseas”
We need to avoid concentrating on this as a Canadian issue. This is an issue which effects people all over the world. For us it’s TFSA’s and RESP’s but I’m sure every other country has it’s issues. We need to do this together
Many people, I am sure, are just trusting that it will go away. We live in civilized countries and have for years been able to feel that something like what is being threatened “couldn’t possibly happen hear” People who worry about it are “just being paranoid”.
I really hope they are right. But history is full of “civilized countries” which have perpetrated atrocities on their citizens in times of crisis. To be fair with the analogy, we are not in danger of being shot or (probably) imprisoned. .But once it starts, this won’t go away unless someone does something about it.
@CanukDoc
You keep mentioning the OVDI program. Are you in a position that is going to force you into this area?
If you are tax compliant in Canada, and are not hiding anything…why would you entertain the thought of going into OVDI?
I am not considering it. But i suspect lots of people are.
I am reporting what was said at the meeting and the gist of the accountants talk was OVDI is a better deal than the alternatives. I am sure that was the message most if not all of the over 200 people at the meeting got. I can also say that the general tone of the rumblings in the audience was that a significant number of them are going to ignore the advice. However, if this is the official advice we are getting it is a) scary (maybe not as scary as “all your life savings” but scary nevertheless that they can expect to demand anything in the situation) and b) newsworthy.