Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Blaze, @omg
Those are my thoughts too. Why, oh why, did the US let all this supposed “non-compliance” ride for decades, not publicizing, not clamping down because of zero $$ owing to the US on returns from US persons in Canada and other countries? And, why didn’t that non-action on their part set some sort of precedent? Their “letting us know” except for the small print on, should we obtain, a US passport (many, many of us do not hold US passports). We were busy living our lives, raising our families, being good citizens of the countries we chose to live in and, indeed negligently, not consulting with tax lawyers and accountants — but we did pay our taxes to the countries in which we live. Seems we didn’t have quite enough money to stay on top of the latest changes, rulings of the US IRS and it never entered our minds that we should have been.
Now, many of us are near or in retirement, with our hard-earned savings that we put into vehicles that our various countries may have designed just for that — registered savings for our retirements or for our children’s college / university educations — as they (Canada, in my case) knew the importance of it and that our savings for education and government pension benefits might not stretch far enough to see us through to the end. We now are sitting ducks or otters with our bellies exposed, ready for the taking, penalized for having such (in our countries) tax-saving accounts.
To add insult to injury, we “traitors” and “tax cheats” who have left the US also have children born in the countries of our choice who, through no fault of their own, are US citizens — no choice for them on that, they are damn well US citizens and subject to the citizenship taxation of the US. Wouldn’t choice have been a fairer option for those who thought they relinquished so long ago and for their children born outside the USA (in my case, Canada)?
As Shubert pointed out, just because you’re not paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you!
I’d like to add that North Korea is another great country that has citizenship-based taxation. Kind of makes sense, no?
Also any money you get from a foreign pension fund, social organisation or whatever, must be declared to the IRS.
The head of the Swiss-American chamber of commerce has just said to a weekly news magazine in Switzerland (an article will be appearing this week on this subject) that all of the Americans who have dual citizenship would be advised to give up their U.S. passport because it is just too costly.
@avowd, it’s not just the issue of cost. If this FATCA goes into effect and banks where I live tell me that I can not have accounts, or my accounts are limited, I’m screwed. I can’t pack up my non-American family and move back there. The only thing I can do is renounce.
@avowd yup, the US is in great company with citizenship-based taxation. Eritrea, North Korea, and (until the beginning of this year) Burma. Oh yeah, and Zimbabwe floated the idea too. Four countries which appear literally at the very bottom of every ranking of economic and social freedom.
But hey, look on the bright side, at least things are getting better for the Burmese =)
geeez: I think he meant “costly” in all of its senses. Perhaps he should have said “onerous”. Switzerland is rather a special case I think, because here, Americans are considered toxic clients and hardly any bank wants anything to do with them anymore. Period. You can perhaps get a checking account but nearly impossible to find a bank to handle your investments. Renouncing is presently the only viable solution, because 1) things could get worse in the coming years, 2) as your accounts grow, so does the IRS’s appetite and 3) you have the extra bonus of getting back your peace of mind.
@avowd
Would love to read the article from the head of the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce. Would you be willing to post a link or start a new post if you are registered on the blog about it? Kind Regards.
I can’t quite figure out where to post things on this site–the forum itself seems to not be active, and where we are posting here doesn’t really seem to be the correct place, but oh well. Here is what I posted on another place here:
If you can read French, a good article just appeared today in today’s Swiss Hebdo entitled “Hounded Americans are giving up their passports.” http://www.hebdo.ch/pourchasses_des_americains_rendent_leur_passeport_146769_.html
In it, the Director of the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce says, “Double nationals who have no real need of their American passport are well advised to give it up, because it has become too onerous to keep it.”
@avowd
I’ll put in it a quick blog post and credit you for the find so that everyone can find it!
@avowd
To post on the site you need a WordPress account and to mention in the “How to Join” blog that you want to join. The admin will then contact you and you can begin to post once you activate your WordPress account on the site here.
Alright, I’m on the “how to join blog” here, right? So may I ask the administration to contact me in order to activate my WordPress account?
Just to be sure you can post on the “How to Join” so that the admin sees it for sure!
No worries. I see.
2nd try.
My short story again.
I have read through «renunciation & relinquisment of US citizenship: discussion thread» from january 13 2012 to feb 9th 2012.
In short my case is as follows: both my parents were canadians and living in Canada. Because they lived near the american borders, my mother gave birth to me on the american side of the border. Came back to Canada on day 4 of my birth. Some 30 years later I asked for my canadian citizenship and got it. It is a white paper date n/a and got the plastic card afterwards dated year 1982.
In august 1994 I got a US SSN and was issued my american passport on oct 1994. I have never used it and it is well past due. I am still a fed employee and my last oath was sept 13, 1999. I’ve never filed US income tax reports and have just recently came aware of all this nightmare FBAR and the works. I never go in the US (last time in 2008 for 3 days) and even if I have a few reletives there, we don’t visit.
Have I committed an expatriating act or not according the the above dates ?
If so, should I then immediately take a «rendez-vous» at the US consulate and relinquish ou renunciate ?
Thank you.
Greenwood, We feel your pain-we don’t know how to advise you. Because you were born in the US and got a passport, they can claim you are a dual citizen.
You are entitled to renounce; however they will tell you that you have to file 5 years of taxes and form 8854 which will determine if you are a covered expatriate or not. (You DO NOT want to be a covered expatriate!)
You can forget the whole thing. This would depend on your relatives, children, whether or not you need to go south or not and so on.
It is possible a border guy could say ‘you were born in the US you are supposed to travel to the US on an American passport’
Or not.
There are lawyers who specialize in this. Clearly some are better than others.
The US cannot and will not take your money away from you. The most clearcut solution is to file 5 yrs of US taxes and then renounce. Whether or not you do is a business decision. Hope this helps. I’m not a lawyer. Avoid the ‘voluntary disclosure’
Greenwood, Schubert 1975 covers a lot of this ground here
Canadian citizens still protected from IRS tax collection and penalties, in Canada
posted today.
Since english is not my first language, what is meant by «You DO NOT want to be a covered expatriate»?
Question 2: I should file 5 years and not 6 and not file the 90-22.1 form then after that renounce ?
@ Greenwood: please read this post: http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/ Now according to the 8 USC 1481:
Your oath as a federal employee may count. Is that what you are asking? Can you reproduce that oath here? (French text-of the oath is good enough for me, some others are also proficient in French).
Don’t worry about your English, it’s fine. The language of IRS is gobbledygook, not English. A covered expatriate is a person who renounces who has over 2 million in assets or owes like 150K per year in taxes.
OK, here is what is written:
«Affirmation government of Canada»
My name
Affirmation of Allegiance
L….my name…do affrm that I will be faithful and bear allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, her heirs ans successors according to law.
Affirmation of office and secrecy
I …my name… solemnly and sincerely affirm that I will faithfully and honestly fulfil the duties that devolve upon me by reason of my employment in the Public Service and that I will not, without due authority in that behalf, disclose or make known any matter that comes to my knowledge by reason of such employment.
Signature…. mine
affirmed at, date and it thas a printed seal.
I think that should qualify. Since it was after you received your passport, you may be able to claim that you committed a relinquishing act. However, if you used your US passport since the last time you made oath then you may have a problem. See this post, which explains how the State Department determines if you have committed a relinquishing act if you have a high level policy position (your I assume is low level, but the oath is sufficient): http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/16/from-the-archive-did-you-relinquish-here-are-some-proofs-that-the-state-department-uses/
If you have done certain things since your last oath (such as travel on the US passport), perhaps you could do another oath and go in an give up your passport.
@greenwood- unfortunately it does not require you to relinquish all loyalties to any other sovereign power that you may already hold.
I’m sorry I cannot keep up the discussion for now. Since I work and must get up à 4h30 must go to bed… will look up your comments tomorrow night even if short on time but will be back.
Thank you.
@petros- @greenwood- I can vouch for the fact that the use of your passport after having performed a relinquishing act will negate any claim of having relinquished. This is even though they are suppose to go according to the preponderance of the evidence.
@ recalcitrant “unfortunately it does not require you to relinquish all loyalties to any other sovereign power that you may already hold.”
That doesn’t matter, what matters is that the oath is sworn with the intention of relinquishment; it says:
One last comment, I’ve never used my US passport. The only time I went down there was in 2008 and my US passport was past due. I had my Canadian passport.
Greenwood, Sounds like you were born in Derby Line. For those readers who don’t know, the border goes through the centre of town. If I remember it goes right through the library.
Your English is better than my French.
I meant that to be classified as a ‘covered expatriate’ is a major major and possibly expensive pain in the derriere. A covered expatriate is also someone who doesn’t swear that he/she is tax compliant for the previous 5 years .
If I were to decide to renounce , I personally would not file the FBAR form 90.22.1 until AFTER I had renounced and probably not ever. As I said, you could elect to forget about it.
I repeat, I am not a lawyer. Bonne Chance!