Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
*I believe that prior to 2002 Australia did not allow dual nationality and by taking Australian citizenship in 1999 you would therefore have had effectively renounced your American citizenship, but you would have to check on this. You might argue that you believed traveling on an American passport and tax filing were a legal requirement of the US. It’s worth a try if you have the time to spend, otherwise renounce.
*Heidi, if that’s true, it sounds like it could be worth a shot
Advantage if successful: The US gov’t definitely agrees you expatriated then and you were off the hook.
Disadvantage of a failed attempt: The US gov’t doesn’t agree and the IRS has proof to say you have/had filing obligations since then. (You’ve filed so it doesn’t really matter), but you are subject to HEART if you choose to renounce (and have to pay $450)
Do Nothing: Live with the uncertainty of your obligations.
Food for thought: Someone gets a back dated CLN and has been paying taxes all along. Could you file an ammended return to the IRS and would they accept a refund request for all taxes paid for the last 3 years (before the refund SOL runs out). I bet they haven’t seen that case before.
@Stgorge @Heidi
I came to Australia as a U.S. citizen in the 1970’s and took out Australian citizenship in 1991. Australia accepted dual nationality at that time so I remained a dual until last year, when I renounced my U.S. citizenship.
I think Heidi is referring to the following information: “From 4 April 2002, Australians becoming citizens of other
countries by a voluntary act no longer lose Australian citizenship.” This does not apply in your case, @Stgorge, as this refers to people who were first Australian citizens and then took out another citizenship.
@BenPloni,
It is easier never to pay the IRS and live abroad than to expect a refund like this. LOL. This one very good reason that those who relinquished before 2004 must be careful never file taxes between 2004-present, unless of course they had US source income for which they must file (e.g., US condo rental).
Thanks for your replies. There is another twist in my tale. When I was naturalized, I had already left the US and was living in Aussie (on a work Visa). I actually flew back there for 2 days to attend the ceremony and never returned to live. This was in breach of the regulations and I could have my citizenship stripped due to this (not sure what the penalty for this is – jail probably). It has crossed my mind to declare that I did not meet the requirements and request that my citizenship is revoked! I bet they’ve never seen that before.
I wonder how the IRS would view that for tax purposes? Are there any immigration lawyers out there? Is it worth asking the question?
@Stgeorge
In the unlikely event you do convince the government to revoke your naturalisation on those grounds, it probably doesn’t help you tax-wise. 26 USC § 877A(g)(4)(D) ((A) through (C) wouldn’t be applicable to you):
Denaturalisation might also have some negative effects on your future eligibility for the visa waiver program. You could ask an immigration lawyer about that part, but don’t ask them about the tax stuff — immigration lawyers are generally entirely ignorant of (or deliberately turn a blind eye to) the godawful tax aspects of the product they peddle.
Duke of Devon, I just checked in to see what’s new on IBS today, and saw your answer to my last question. I think you supplied that last bit of info that lets me make an informed decision. So I will make the following my mantra :
“I am a Canadian citizen and no matter how much money I have and no matter what the IRS thinks of my citizenship status, they can’t come get me in Canada.”
There is also no problem with the bank as long as one furnishes them the info they need to ask for FATCA compliance, though it is disgusting.
Could I suggest a link in the headings of the FATCA and Relinquishment threads under the words “If you are a Canadian citizen read this” … to a short paragraph resuming the protection offered to them as Canadians?
Again, thanks everyone for the help. I’ll let IBS know if I go to the US consulate in Montreal to relinquish and how things went there.
*The bank won’t ask you. Glad if I helped. Courage.
@Eric
Thanks for that link. You’ve just saved me the bother of even discussing this with an immigration lawyer. It looks like I am headed for a vanilla renunciation which will terminate my citizenship on the day I take the oath. Painful really, as I left the US the day after I was naturalised over 20 years ago and have never returned. I don’t have many regrets in life but …… that’s a big one!
Reason.com: “U.S. Tax Rules Drive Dual-Citizenship Taiwanese To Drop American Passports”
http://reason.com/24-7/2013/01/28/us-tax-rules-drive-dual-citizenship-taiw
From the article:
“A number of Taiwan residents with dual nationalities have chosen to renounce their American citizenship to avoid taxes under FATCA, formally known as Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, according to local media reports.”
“Ruling Kuomintang Legislator Lai Shyh-bao was quoted as saying that scores of owners of small- and medium-sized enterprises and management executives have begun proceedings to relinquish their U.S. citizenship.”
*John Brown, this one doesn’t claim that it’s only the rich, unlike the original article. Maybe my comment made a difference? Here’s the original with my comment: http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=2121625
Duke, why do you say to Old&Simple that the back won’t ask him about being a US person?
I came across this short article about British expats over at Overseas Exile blog.
The Telegraph: “Now almost eight in 10 expats make a permanent move”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/9808325/Now-almost-eight-in-10-expats-make-a-permanent-move.html
From the article:
“Expats are increasingly turning temporary overseas work into a permanent move and it does seem that the UK is losing its allure for many people who have experienced different cultures and lifestyles. Availability of jobs and the cost of living certainly plays a role, but as our research shows, lifestyle factors can also be decisive in where people chose to live.”
The question for American expats is will many, or should I say any, permanent expats keep their US citizenship?
John Brown:
I can’t speak for other expats, but as for myself, once I become Canadian, I’m not keeping my US citizenship.
Question about Canadian citizenship certificate fot CLN purposes.
I took Canadian citizenship in ’79, but requested an updated citizenship certificate in ’91 because my photo was old, and at the time, I would use my Cdn certificate along with my drivers licence for ID when rarely crossing the border.
I had to turn in my old certificate and what I got back was a set of two documents:
1. A wallet sized certificate of citizenship with photo for ID purposes with the date of issue of that card, i.e. ’91
2. An 8×12 commemorative certificate indicating the date I really went through the ceremony (Oct 16, 1979). On the back it says not to be used as ID, but it is linked to the card format by the same document number.
Anyone have a problem with certificates from this period?
The format they are using now is one large certificate with photo, if I understand what I saw on the CIC website, but it wouldbtake 5 months to get one according to same site. I rather make my CLN appointment soonest.
Thanks.
@ Old and Simple
Your certificates of citizenship are different from the one I cherish. Mine was issued in 1969. It is large and there is no picture. The consulate accepted it without question in 2011 at the time I applied for a CLN. In my opinion, your certificate(s) are fine.
Duke, why do you say to Old&Simple that the back won’t ask him about being a US person?
WhatAmI …some on this site think that under an IGA it is the CRA that’ll tell the banks to ask that question for them and that it’s the CRA that’ll transmit the data. Personally, that won’t bother me, especially if I get a CLN.
*@ Old and Simple
(I must say, it seems odd in the extreme to address someone like that!)
My Certificate of Canadian Citizenship is about 8″ x 10″ and has my name on the front and on the back name again, birth date, sex, height, complexion, eye colour, hair colour, and the date (1967). No picture. I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t accept your certificate(s) as long as the date is specified on the one. That is, as long as you go to a consulate where there are sensible people making decisions.
@Old & Simple,
My Certificate of Canadian citizenship is just as hijacked2012 said that her’s is. The consulate I used was Vancouver – and as has been posted here, they are ‘picky, picky,picky’. What my notes from them state is the Certificate must show the Date of Citizenship ceremony. I don’t believe the citizenship card has that date on it. So your commemorative certificate should be just fine.
Hi Hijacked!
You wrote:
*@ Old and Simple
(I must say, it seems odd in the extreme to address someone like that!)
Somehow when I chose that name, I was looking for something that would signify a little bit what I am, and I heard my grandmother’s voice say “He’s gettin’ old and simple,” which in her perod English (she was born in 1898) would have been a polite way of saying an old dude was getting past it in the mind. “Guess you’re right, Gam,” I answered and typed it in the box.
Thanks for the certificate info.
*Old and Simple
If anyone wasn’t already “old and simple” this whole nightmare would soon make them so.
Know what you mean though – I became Hijacked because that’s what my life suddenly felt like.
I acquired Canadian citizenship in 2011. Since then, I have traveled twice (or possibly three times, I need to double-check the dates) to the US on my American passport, for a total of about two weeks spent in the US. I also did file US income taxes for the 2011 tax year, but have not yet for 2012.
Does this mean that I am out of luck if I wish to relinquish my American citizenship and must renunciate instead? $450 feels like highway robbery, but I suppose it will save me much more money in the long run by removing double taxation. Should I file 2012 taxes, or is there a way I can announce that acquiring Canadian citizenship in 2011 was intended to be a relinquishment of American citizenship?
*Jeremy, try to relinquish. In a worst-case scenario, they’ll make you renounce and pay the fee, but then at least you tried and the $450 fee is still less than the time and money spent on tax preparers.
@Jeremy,
Unfortunately, yes, you will “probably” have to renounce. Your using a US passport after that time (i.e. you were not “coerced into getting the US passport and using it). With your renunciation will come the requirement to show you have filed US taxes anyway (Form 8854 in June the year after your renunciation). You may be able to show that you have filed the requisite number of returns, but that will require returns for 2012 and 2013, up to the day before your renunciation if you renounce this year.
$450 will be a small price to pay for your freedom, going forward from the time you receive your CLN (either through renuniation or, a stretch, relinquishment). If you are able to successfully claim relinquishment, that will be important news here at Isaac Brock for others to take into consideration.
Thank you for the advice, SwissPinoy and calgary411. I will look into this more this week and try to get the ball rolling.