Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Hi again Petros.
I suppose you saw my post of a few minutes ago on the FATCA thread…the subjects do overlap.
So! to rephrase, even if we were to satisfy our bank’s future FATCA reporting requirements, if we’re Canadian citizens, there would be no practical consequences?
I guess what I’m getting at is this: even if our financial institutions comply and even if we confirmed US birth to them, is IRS unlikely to be able to do anything to us and our banks will let us keep our accounts ? I know this FATCA thing is terribly unjust, but if IRS can’t do anything to us with the data they get, your suggestion about telling them to f-off is tempting.
Even knowing that, I would still be tempted to go for a CLN, just to have something in writing from DOS confirming my status as an ex-American.
@Old&Simple, if you have US source income, and the bank nails you, then there are consequences of not getting a CLN. If you try to cross the US border with a Canadian passport, the border guards may nail you. If you think you have assets below threshold and you won’t be traveling to the US, if you don’t ever think that you will receive money from the United States (or you will never be marked as either recalcitrant or as a US person by your bank), then it is possible that you don’t need a CLN. That’s as things stand now, in a certain kind of limbo. What are the chances that Canada will say “Back off!”? What are the chances that Canada will sign the IGA? I can’t answer these last two questions with any certainty at all.
But I don’t think you will run any danger by having a Consulate clarify your loss of citizenship. The exit tax and all the filing don’t apply to you.
“Even knowing that, I would still be tempted to go for a CLN, just to have something in writing from DOS confirming my status as an ex-American.”
@ Old&Simple
Just my opinion but I think that’s a good move. IF Canadian banks get the go-ahead from our gov’t to ask you where you were born then you would be armed with a CLN to prevent them from reporting you. IF they reported you anyway for whatever reason then they would be causing you harm and I would think a lawsuit would be in order.
@Old&Simple, I’ve lost track of why you hesitate to get your CLN. (forgive me for not searching and re-reading all your posts). As I recall, you obtained Canadian citizenship years ago and have not acted as a USC in anyway since. By all reports here, it’s pretty well a sure thing that you’ll get a back-dated CLN without having to talk to the IRS at all. That’s as good as it gets, I figure. The people who can’t relinquish regret that they can’t (because they renewed a US passport after getting Canadian citizenship, etc) and now they have to renounce.
*@MarkTwain
For the activities involving account reporting, my understanding is that for calendar year 2013 (this year), what counts as pre-existing accounts are any accounts maintained as of December 31, 2013 – both the IGAs and the regular regulation are now consistent on this date – so in other words the reporting is for the balance on December 31, 2013. If no account on December 31, 2013, nothing reported for calendar year 2013.
*Old& Simple… AKA Old Worrier.
The bank will not ask your place of birth. Since your account is small, they will not ask your citizenship. You have exactly 2 options . Both are equally good. 1. Do nothing. Since you don’t plan to travel to the US and don’t have US assets nothing will change and you are perfectly safe.
Option 2. Get a CLN. In your case, this will be a sure thing. Just avoid Vancouver. The dep’t of state will send your name to the IRS. They will have no idea what to do with it since there won’t be a social security no. attached. (whatever you do don’t even think about getting a (US) social security no. END OF STORY.
You will then have a nice piece of paper that you can frame proving you are not american. No one will ask to see it but it might comfort you.
A lot of people here are muddying the water with wild speculation about what could happen but your case is straightforward and simple.
Be strong— être fort
*@Duke of Devon
When applying for a CLN, does the embassy/consulate ask for the social security number or not necessarily?
*I don’t know the answer to that. Others here should.
*I was asked for a SSN in Toronto. I said I didn’t have one and they put N/A on the form. I have since received my CLN.
*Old & Simple This is causing you a lot of stress. Do you have a trusted friend or relative you could discuss all of these posts with to help you clarify things. Sometimes just talking helps clear the air or unmuddy the water.
*@Shmuck
The info form they sent out had that as a question. Judging by what others here say, it is not required. Lordy – I spose I have one unless they expire but I havent seen it for 45 years so I am just saying I do not remember on the form.
Petros and Duke. Thanks for your patience. I realize my question was rambling and should have concentrated on one succint point without mentioning the CLN.
Many thousands of people could find themselves in this situation:
1. Long time Canadian citizen. 2. Born in US. 3. No US assets or income. 4. More than $50000 in account. 5. Freely admits to bank he was born in US…thinking none of this can touch him , and thus not recalcitrant but probably marked as a US person. 6. Is reported under FATCA to IRS.
Then what happens? That is my real question. What are the real world consequences?
Let’s forget my case (although if my common law spouse dies number 4 would apply to me). Off hand I can think of a few friends and acquaintances with just that profile, and really believe it will be a frequent case throughout Canada.
For the life of me, from the information I get here, except for border crossing or having US property, I can’t see what some of the Canadian citizens writing here are afraid of. If they are in the situation I describe, what does it matter even if they have a million dollar account?
To repeat succintly, what will really happen to people who are reported under FATCA?
*O&S. a) People in your situation don’t and won’t get reported under FATCA
b) For someone with no US assets or heirs there is not a d**n thing they can do. c) For someone with a million dollar account and no US assets or heirs and no desire to travel south there is nothing to fear. End of story. Be strong.
*@Old&Simple
Couple bad things come to mind: (1) They force the closure of your bank account(s), (2) You get lotsa threatening mail and phones from IRS, which cannot collect from you in Canada, so they issue an arrest warrrant for you but you are safe as long as you dont set foot down there.
Hello, Thank you all for your information. I’ve been trying to find out more about my kafka-esque situation. I was born in the US in the late 60’s to Canadian parents and only lived in the US for one year. I have always traveled on a Canadian passport, and believed that I had relinquished my US citizenship upon voting in Canadian elections. Is there any way I can get a CLN? My Canadian Certificate of Birth Abroad has no date of issuance, and I have never taken part in a Citizenship Ceremony, so I have no proof of swearing an oath to the Queen. I have nightmares of ending up in a US jail if an international flight gets grounded… Is filing and renouncing my only remaining option? Thanks for any feedback. W.
*
*@Petros, you said “Personally, I’d be curious to see if anyone who gets sufficiently back dated CLN will ever get contacted by the IRS”
I have a CLN that is just about a year old now and have not been contacted. I wonder if the IRS has contacted anyone that has not contacted them first.
@Worried, It does not really matter the exact date your CBA was issued. You have been Canadian citizen since the day you were born.
The law for voting was repealed in 1978 and was probably unconstitutional even then. If you were born in the late 60’s you would have been to young to vote before the law was repealed. Stop with the worrying, I have renounced and all is fine.
*@Worried
If you only lived there a year (to age 1, I assume) I wouldnt think you have much to worry you. How would the US find out? You have no US passport, never paid taxes, no SSN, never voted, etc. Even if they did find out, I wouldnt think you would be arrested at the border. My opinion: dont do anything – assume you are a normal Canadian citizen.
Hello, I wonder if anyone would comment on the following situation:
British born, spent 4-5 years in the US 20 odd years ago. Got married and became a naturalized citizen (mistake!!!). Left the US almost immediately, went to Australia and became an Australian Citizen 1999. Unfortunately, continued to file US tax returns and renewed passport once as I was told I had to travel to US on it.
Can I claim that I relinquished in 1999 in light of the above facts or do I have no choice but to renounce. Would prefer not to file form 8854 if possible.
Thanks*
@Worried, from your post just now I’d say my situation is quite similar to yours. Maybe the US Feds would consider them identical.
However, I did go to the US consulate in the early 70’s to find out my status, and make sure my US citizenship was going to “expire” as my mother vaguely thought. I was told dual citizenship didn’t exist (which it didn’t at the time) and that I was not a USC, and shown the door. Of course, there is no record of this, but obviously I believed I wasn’t a USC. I stopped worrying about the draft, and lived my life as the Canadian that I am.
Most opinions are that this won’t get me a back-dated CLN. However, I think it will win me a reasonable cause argument at any time in the future for having ignored this whole situation if they ever catch up to me. If FATCA goes through in some form in Canada I don’t know if the “electronic search” that FATCA talks about will turn up my birthplace or not. I’m guessing it will, not from bank records but from information sharing from the CRA and/or our government.
In the mean time I’ve made the decision to not do anything for now, which includes not setting foot in the US. In fact, my family is in Arizona this week without me. I was planning a trip to the British Virgin Islands in April. It fell through, but I was prepared to get there by flying through Toronto and Antigua or Barbados rather than connecting in Houston and Puerto Rico. I do wonder about flying over US airspace though, as you mentioned!
If you are thinking of renouncing, I would suggest you first attempt to get a relinquishment. I can’t see that it would do you any harm. (Do people agree?) Having somebody in our situation try it would be invaluable. 😉 I can’t offer to be the one to try it though, not yet.
You might want to have a read of my thread from about 5 months ago. I don’t think we know any more now than we did then.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/09/06/what-am-i-born-in-the-us-but-the-us-consulate-told-me-in-1970s-that-i-am-not-an-american/comment-page-1/#comments
@Woofy, popular thought here is that the US would find out about Worried if he tried to cross the border and if FATCA is implemented in some form.
@StGeorge…You have a fair shot at relinquishment and getting a CLN, but you’ll need to emphasize that while you natualized in 1999 with intent, you would have to fall back on the argument that you filled out US tax returns/renewed a passport thinking that this was required until you documented. It’s a balance of probabilities that you wanted to relinquish when naturalized despite the fact you did us tax returns/renewed passport after the fact due being misinformed on the rules that you will have to convince the consulate. Let us know how it goes if you go through it. The worst case is they’ll refuse and you will have to renounce, but in general the law is what you had in mind when when you naturalized that counts.
The DOS manual says:
The U.S. Supreme Court has spoken (Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252
(1980)): A person cannot lose U.S. nationality unless he or she
voluntarily and intentionally relinquishes that status. In analyzing a
possible loss-of-nationality case, ask the following questions, in this
order:
(1) Was the person a U.S. citizen at the time of the potentially
expatriating act?
(2) Did the person perform an act which the relevant U.S. statute
defines as a potential basis for expatriation?
(3) Was the act performed “voluntarily,” i.e., as a product of the
individual’s free will (free of the undue influence of another) with an
understanding of the nature of the act and a good general
knowledge of its consequences?
(4) Was the act performed with the intention (though not necessarily
the motive or desire) to relinquish U.S. citizenship?
@Stgeorge, no I’m afraid it’ll be a renunciation for you. Even if you had taken Australian citizenship with the intent to relinquish the US one, the fact that you’ve continued to file US tax forms would negate that in the US authorities eyes. Only if Australian law at the time specifically prevented dual citizenship, which I doubt, could you possibly argue for a relinquishment.
Stgeorge –
I second Medea. My case similar. Only connections were tax filing and passport, both arguably in fulfillment of “legal” requirements. No love, no allegiance, no voting ever, decades of absence, etc. Made to renounce. They want that $450.
@Medea and usxcanda. I’d assume that renewing a passport could provide a valid reason as pacifica stated, but once you fill out tax returns, that’s proof in their view that you weren’t serious.