Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
*I gave no reason why I renounced, was not asked and the staff was polite. Months earlier, I had sent them a letter with the following question, and they responded with an information package regarding the renunciation process:
Months later, I called for an appointment, renounced 4 days later and got a CLN after two months (last month). In 13 days, I have to refinance my mortgage and US citizenship is no longer an obstacle. It is silly that I had to pay $450 for that, but the annual fees for proving to banks US tax compliance with no tax due, would have been much higher.
Does anyone have experience with what happens to the NEXUS card once someone who is a dual citizen of Canada and the US, renounces the US citizenship?
Has anyone had any issues traveling to and from the US following renunciation? What sorts of procedures has one had to undergo at the US customs and border control when crossing?
@ Joe,
No one who’s reported post-renunciation entry to the US here or at Maple Sandbox has reported any problems. FWIW, although one needs to have their CLN (or a copy of it) with them when entering the US, seems like most people weren’t even asked for it.
Not to say hassles can’t or don’t happen, but so far overall it sounds like the norm is it’s no big deal to enter the US post-renunciation.
Mr. Zernik,
Thanks for submitting your most recent comments. For me, they are an FYI. I think most of us who commented did so based on your question:
It appeared to those that commented that you were not denied to take the Oath of Renunciation and were advised the renunciation form would be sent to Washington, DC where it would be approved and, if so, you would subsequently receive a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. This doesn’t differ from reports we’ve had at this site. That is all we have to base our comments on.
and:
We answered in good faith based on the information reported here by others, none of whom completed the Witnesses’ Attestation, which was determined to be Form 4082, the form required to witness the signature when the renunciant does not speak English…
The fact that your bank will not release your funds prior to FATCA implementation is, to me, abhorrent. It is indeed useful information for others reading here of the overreach of the US and what their banks “might” do in other cases. I can’t comment further.
*Joseph Zernik, wow, thanks for your efforts! I had a mortgage with Countrywide. They had tried to foreclose my house, but I gave it to a friend who sold it instead.
*Dr. Zernik, I suggest that instead of issuing potential libelous press releases you listen to people who actually understand the process of renunciation. It is you who have the issues and are ignoring the facts. You made an appointment to renounce, the due fees were paid and relevant documents were sworn by you and signed by the Consul, then sent to Washington for final approval as is the procedure worldwide. It has been pointed out to you several times that the Witness Attestation form was not required to be witnessed and signed in your case and that the CLN will follow in due course when/if the final approval is granted.
I see that you have already had dealings with the said Israeli banks and the State of Israel regarding FATCA which also may parly explain their reactions regarding your accounts.
Getting my CLN kit together. Question : Do I need to get a Canadian passport if I don’t have one yet?
Having a phobia about flying, I seldom travel, and haven’t even crossed the US border since before a passport was required. I have a certficate of citizenship with the date of my citizenship ceremony (October ’79), an old citizenship card with my photo issued in ’91, and my current drivers license and medicare cards with photo.
The US Consulate report has been very useful. Have my DS forms ready to fill out.
@Old&Simple, If you are going to inform the Consulate of your renunciation that took place years ago, don’t take any guff from them. Just go in and inform them that you aren’t a US citizen any more. Why would you need a passport? Do you need it to re-enter Canada after telling them of your relinquishment? No. So don’t take any guff from them.
So you have to have attitude when you walk in there. You tell them that you aren’t citizen, and that you haven’t been from the day you became a Canadian, and that you want a CLN. You don’t ask them, “Please may I relinquish?” You don’t say, “I want to relinquish my US citizenship.” You just say, I have a written statement to give to the Consular official that I am no longer an US citizen.
I say this because my wife’s cousin was told she needed a CDN passport by the Vancouver Consulate. They probably meant that she would need it in the future to travel to the United States–but she didn’t need it to renounce.
I think I read somewhere that consulates generally, for your own protection, won’t relinquish you unless you can prove you have citizenship in another country. A valid passport is perhaps the best proof?
Otherwise, you could potentially end up like Tom Hanks in the movie “The Terminal”, which was based on a true story. The real guy finally left CdG/Paris airport in 2006 after 18 years! He didn’t renounce or anything; his passport was simply stolen.
*Petros, thanks so much for the quick answer.
Actually, I have a citizenship card with photo, and a commemorative certificate of citizenship issued at the same time(1991) with the same number and indicating the date I took my citizenship. That’s what they were giving as proof back then, though apparently now you can get an 8 1/2 x 11″ certificate with photo and date of naturalization but no small card. That should do as proof of citizenship.
A worry: in the Consulate Report I see that someone says they ask for you American Social Security Number so they can report you to IRS… Is this so?
@ Old and Simple,
I can’t see that being a problem as the citizenship documents themselves are the proof you acquired citizenship, and that’s what you have to establish, that you acquired citizenship and the date it was acquired.
Not everyone has a passport. Dunja, for example, did not have a French passport. Nor, as Petros writes, did his cousin in Vancouver need a Canadian passport.
Hijacked mentioned that at Calgary, s/he was asked for “Birth certificate, Canadian citizenship certificate, Identification, for which I provided my Canadian passport.”
Hijacked’s statement dovetails with what a Toronto consulate official told me on the phone prior to my meeting, which I recall as, “Bring your birth certificate, citizenship certificate, and your driver’s licence as we need current photo id.”I said, “I have a passport.” And he said, “Sure that’s fine.”
So, it seems the passport is used primarily as a form of current photo id.
That’s neat that Petros wrote that his wife’s cousin renounced at Vancouver without a passport – Vancouver’s noted for giving people a really hard time about documents. If it didn’t bother them, I can’t see it bothering anybody.
*Thanks Pacifica.
How about that Soc sec number and Irs?
I wasn’t asked about SSN. It’s not standard to ask, although some people have reported being asked — the consulates are somewhat inconsistent on this and some other things. As you’ve seen, it’s not required on any of the official documents you fill out and sign.
As for notifying IRS, according to the DOS Manual 7 FAM 1250, pages 2 and 3, Dept of State provides copies of all approved CLNs to IRS.
You’re pre-1995, though. So, check out this thread on pre-1995 relinquishments
*Old & Simple. They are not supposed to ask for a SSN. If they do, the correct answer is that you don’t have one. The subject of taxes, IRS, etc. should not come up. You are not an American . Reread Petros’ post. You are informing them that you gave up your US citizenship years ago. You’ve come this far. Don’t stop now.
KalC brings up a good point about the subject of taxes, IRS, etc. absolutely should not come up. One consulate has been into this (amongst other questionable things) but as you see in the Consulate Report Directory, we warn people to stay away from that place anyway. They are not supposed to question people about their tax history. And apart from that one consulate, the others we know of stay away from the subject, as they should.
And, of course, logically if you weren’t a citizen, you wouldn’t have been filing taxes.
You folks have been so wonderfully helpful!
As to the Canadian Passport, I won’t get one for THEM, but I think I’ll get one for me, to celebrate my CLN and the exuberant happiness of having confirmed my one and only citizenship.
From the moment I crossed the border in 1976 and started living and working in Montréal, I knew I would never go back. Over the years I would sometimes be asked by Americans and people from the ROC about ethnic tensions in Montreal and I would laugh and answer “My own family is French, English and Italian…and as far as conflict, well, the murder rate in the American city I came from was 16 time higher than Montreal when I left and hasn’t gotten any better. I am sooo lucky to be here.”
@pacifica, my wife’s cousin didn’t renounce. Last I heard she wants to keep her US citizenship, despite the expensive compliance costs.
Mike Golguski, a self-proclaimed anarchist, renounced US citizenship without having another citizenship. In other words, he became stateless.
http://www.nostate.com/1364/certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-canceled-us-passport/
*Petros, there is nothing wrong with that and many people are like that. It is their right and their choice. If one loves being threatened with huge fines, jail time, one enjoys spending a fortune on tax processing fees and one appreciates the security risk of snail mailing sensitive data, then it is great to be a US citizen abroad! Others, like myself, doesn’t need that. Unfortunately, it is not easy for everyone to escape domestic abuse.
@AbusedExpat there have been several other cases of people renouncing & becoming stateless too; I wrote about some of them over on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Martyn_Noel (renounced in 1948)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jolley (1967)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Slater (1987)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmon_Wilfred (2005)
The Tina TUrner press releases state that her hometown Mayor wants to understand why and wants to address those reasons.
I wrote her a letter, but more letters from people with good Writing skills would sway her more than my one.
MAYOR
http://www.haywoodcountybrownsville.com/Contacts.aspx
Jo Matherne, Mayor
111 N. Washington Avenue
Brownsville, TN 38012
731-772-1212
E-mail: jmatherne@brownsvilletn.gov
@Old&Simple, @All,
Requirement of Canadian Passport — at least for Vancouver Consulate:
Anonymous via Calgary411
The rogue Vancouver consulate absolutely insisted on a Canadian passport. That requirement added about a month to renunciation time. I knew that according to law, that that document cannot be required. For that matter, neither can the second citizenship which they also require. But on the ground, they can insist on whatever they want to. It’s the rule of whim. When I questioned the whim, the explanation was: We need an up-to-date valid passport to reassure us that your Canadian citizenship documentation is valid.
@ Anonymous via Calgary411,
Thanks for clarifying, with your experience, the passport situation at Vancouver.
@ Old and Simple,
Anonymous-via-Calgary411 brings up a very good point about the “rule of whim.”
There is certainly a good chance Montréal won’t require a passport, as by all reports they seem pretty sensible to deal with, we know of some other consulates that don’t (so far as I know, only Vancouver has made an issue of this, but it doesn’t come up much), and as Anonymous-via-Calgary411 states, he knows that the foreign passport is not required by law.
The DOS Manual, 7 FAM 1220 Developing a Loss of Nationality Case, illustrates this, that, to claim a relinquishment, you have to provide proof that the relinquishing act occurred, in your case under s. 349(a)(1), establish that you acquired the Canadian citizenship and on what date it was acquired. There’s no reference in 1220 to a passport in order “to reassure us that your citizenship documentation is valid” – or any reference to a foreign passport at all, or to proving, by any means, that non-US citizenship documentation is currently valid.
But also as A-v-C points out:
The consulates are not consistent. Generally speaking, Vancouver’s in a league of its own, above and beyond requirements when it comes to documentation, and Montréal has a reputation for being reasonable and basically just focused on getting the job done. But you can never be sure unless someone has had experience with the same issue at the same consulate.
If I lived in or near Montréal, (so a possible second visit wouldn’t require a second long trip, overnight stay), I’d probably just go to the consulate without getting a Canadian passport, not expecting it to be an issue, but prepared that it could be. If they want to “be reassured that your Canadian citizenship documentation is valid,” you could explain that they only have to establish that the relinquishing act occurred, which the citizenship documentation does. You could actually bring 7 FAM 1220 with you (that’d probably freak the heck out of them! 🙂 I mean in the sense of being startled you’d consulted it, not in a bad sense, as their clients generally don’t even know the DOS manual exists). Anyway, If the consulate doesn’t back down, then I’d get a Canadian passport and go back. Alternatively one could take the matter up with a higher level, but rather than that it’s probably faster to get a passport (I got one for travelling and it came in 2 weeks, and A-v-C says his took about a month). Just my 2c.
Does anyone know what IRS is doing with all those copies of CLNs it’s receiving from the DOS?