Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Focus Taiwan: “Talk of the Day — Rich Taiwanese give up U.S. passports over FATCA”
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?ID=201301140036&Type=aTOD
From the article:
“Ruling Kuomintang Legislator Lai Shyh-bao was quoted as saying that scores of owners of small- and medium-sized enterprises and management executives have begun proceedings to relinquish their U.S. citizenship.”
“Some senior bankers estimated that about 20,000 to 30,000 residents in Taiwan may be affected by FATCA.”
As always, they consistently manage to screw up the title.
Author: SwissPinoy
Comment:
Here is an interesting post in a Taiwanese forum
http://www.taiwanease.com/en/forums/topic6741.html#p3071
This one has been around for a while, but it’s still interesting:
*Thanks for the wonderful information on this site. I now understand the difference between renunciation and relinquishment, and think the latter is for me.
My date of application for Canadian citizenship was 1984, and my citizenship was granted in March of 1985.
My story. I was born in Texas in 1956. I moved to Canada to go to university at the age of 19 (1975). I applied for and received landed immigrant status in 1978. And I applied for Canadian citizenship in 1984; this was granted in 1985. I have always considered and assumed I was Canadian. I got a Canadian passport, and never renewed my US passport. My 1989-94 Canadian passport does not list my place of birth; I wanted it to be clear that I was Canadian. However, I soon learned you can’t travel to certain places if your passport does not list your place of birth, and so when I went to the Czech Republic for a holiday, I could only enter the country with my place of birth listed; I got a new Canadian passport listing my place of birth, however always claimed Canadian citizenship where ever and when ever I traveled.
Over the years, when I would travel to or through the US, I’ve used my Canadian passport, as I have no other. I’ve experienced different treatment over the years from US immigration officials as I enter the country. They used to ask if I was a US citizen. I would recite my story, I am a Canadian, and I understood this to mean I was not a US citizen. They would ask, had I formally renounced. I said, I don’t know, what does that mean. They’d let me in. Later, I was harassed, why was I not traveling on US passport if I was born in the US. I would give a litany of reasons as to why I was Canadian. If I could avoid traveling through the US on my way to another country I would. Now, they are friendly, but I always fear that some day, for some reason that I don’t understand, they might just haul me away.
I’ve been married, own a house, paid Canadian taxes, and received two government of Canada awards for my contributions to Canada.
Thanks for any advice. While I live in Victoria, I am thinking of going to Calgary to file my form. The Vancouver consulate has NO appointments, none, available.
*There are lots of threads on this website to the effect that if you relinquished before 1995 that contacting the revenuers isn’t required. See the right hand panel under ‘our resources’
@Lagoon
Welcome to the IBS site. It does sound like you have a good case to file for a CLN as a ‘relinquisher’ and as Duke of Devon reported above, you should not have to file any forms with the IRS.
I have used the Vancouver consulate and they are difficult to deal with and as you said show no appointments showing into June. If at all possible to travel to another consulate, my suggestion would be to do so. There was a report back in November that things would open up in Vancouver but there has not been any evidence of that.
Is there a written stepwise procedure to relinquish available?*
@JG – It probably deserves the equivalent of renunciationguide.com. It’s a much easier road than renunciation for a lot of people.
FWIW the State Department apparently was going to issue a FAM-series set of instructions on relinquishment, as distinct from renunciation.
@John green, there’s some information on relinquishment procedure in the Consulate Report Directory, a list of required forms with links, for example, and also people’s stories of their relinquishment experiences.
*Anyone know if CLN’s are being delayed now more than before? I live in europe and did it in a European consulate in late summer y and was supposed to take 4-6 weeks according to them. Now almost 6 months later and no news. they just say it is in process.
i will provide detail after I get it but prefer to keep low for nwo:)
thanks
josh
@Josh,
Actually, from what is reported here they seem to be getting faster from Washington, DC back to Canadian Consulates and then on to recipients.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
and
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/
We haven’t had recent reports from anyone in Europe. Previously, they seemed to be getting their CLN’s faster than in Canada.
Keep checking with the Consulate you dealt with to make sure yours hasn’t been lost somewhere. And, good luck.
@Josh, I live in Switzerland and got the CLN in two months. The delay is probably because the consulate that you went to is sitting on it, probably to annoy you.
@Josh – I had a similarly unpleasant (to put it mildly…) experience. I renounced in Frankfurt in August and was told it would take 3-4 weeks, however in the end it took 4 months (!). That, of course, was simply unexcusable, since I had given up my US passport and dual citizenship is not allowed in Germany. The German authorities here in Frankfurt told me that from prior experience they would expect it to take 4 months, so they had more accurate information than the US consulate. If you’ve been waiting for 6 months, it seems you should be getting your CLN soon.
*thanks all for your responses. appreciated.
i do check with the consulate and response is always the same- “in process.”
I am wondering if maybe will need to hire a lawyer to pursue it? anyone used a lawyer successfully in a case like this??
@josh, save your money. A lawyer will not help speed the process, though he might claim that he has that power.
If you’ve waited six months that’s good. The CLN can’t be much more than another six months away. I waited over one year to receive mine (Toronto, 2011, relinquishment)
*@Petros, just hypothetically speaking of course; @Josh, I wonder if receiving a CLN takes longer in the case of a renunciation rather than a relinquishment even though you need it to be able to receive your German passport.
I’ve also often wondered if it can be trickier making an acceptable statement concerning reasons of wanting to renounce, especially as it might be harder to convince them that wants to actually give up citizenship if they’ve voted in a US election after already receiving their second passport. Seems more straightforward to argue reasons for relinquishing (vs renouncing) if one hasn’t done anything ‘American’ in the interim such as travel on a US passport, vote in US election, file taxes, etc.
I suspect that they will realize that people could be renouncing because of FATCA but that it would be too risky to actually acknowledge the 800 lb gorilla in the room, etc.
It thus seems that a full-fledged RENUNCIATION vs a ‘mere’ relinquishment is riskier in that sense. Perhaps for some people it might be safer to save potential future problems by using an attorney even though it would probably costs several thousand dollars. :/
The reason for making a statement is because the State Department website has a notice that if you have relinquished your citizenship that you should make it known in writing to a Consulate. This forces them to receive your statement of relinquishment, and they cannot put you off for a second meeting.
You do not have to explain why you are relinquishing, but putting reasons that have nothing to do with taxes are not going to hurt your case against being accused of renouncing for tax purposes. So for example, I said that I love Canada and the community here and I am attached to it, and cannot be loyal to two countries.
Finally, of course if you mention doing things like traveling on a US passport or voting in US elections (or if they find out through other means) after becoming a citizen of another country, they will not accept your statement of relinquishment and you will have to pay the $450 to renounce.
*True, but the whole point I’m making is that it seems pretty obvious that if said person continued to vote and use U.S. passport that they haven’t demonstrated an intention to relinquish. They would thus have to pay the $450 fee and renounce rather than relinquish.
Couldn’t this result in the Consulate asking awkward questions as to why suddenly the applicant no longer wishes to maintain dual nationality. They could have a lot of explaining to do…which is why I wonder if potential renunciants should seek legal advice before proceeding?
@Monalisa, bear in mind that a renouncer doesn’t have to answer questions. You know the old line, “You have the right to remain silent.” You can make a statement saying that you think dual nationality is absurd. That you want to be attached to your local community better etc. The State Department can’t stop you from renouncing even if you give no explanation.
The important thing is that a person knows what their rights are and that they say nothing to the a government official other than what is helpful to finish the paperwork.
This is why the US tax code moved to an automatic exit tax of “covered expatriates”. They could never prove that a person expatriated for tax purposes, so they decided to just penalize the wealthy by instituting the exit tax. It is easier to live up to your reputation of a communist dictatorship that way.
@Petros
thanks for your input about attorney. I knwo in canada easily ca take a year but in western europe I havent seen long delays. has anyone else seen??
I renounced (i did NOT relinquish) by the way.
there are lawyers who make claims so wonder if any really can do anything
@Mona Lisa,
The consulate shouldn’t be asking the person why they want to renounce. Not to say it doesn’t happen.
There absolutely should not be “interrogation.” I only know of that occurring at one consulate, where it appears to have been routine practice (not that I know about every consulate) and that when one of the people they tried it on resisted and complained (to a different and higher level) about that and other practices, it was taken very seriously and person got their CLN with no hassles or repercussions at all through a different consulate. I know that someone recently expatriated at the first mentioned consulate and experienced no egregious, or even improper, behaviour, so they may have cleaned up their act (or been forced to) as a result.
As Petros says, a person renouncing is not required to offer a reason for their decision. And the above example is an good illustration of Petros’ advice on the importance of knowing your rights. It usually doesn’t matter — most consulates and staff are not out to cause trouble — but it can be critical.
But be flexible. At some places, vice consuls do ask why you’re renouncing, seemingly out of curiosity. I wouldn’t make an issue out of something like that, and just answer, the less said, the better. Just keep the conversational atmosphere and give a simple answer like Rodgrod’s, “I want to simplify my life” or you feel it’s appropriate because over time you’ve come to feel your life has become completely committed to [your country], real short and sweet.
@Josh,
I don’t know of anyone who followed up on a late CLN, beyond contacting the consulate.
The CLNs are approved by a division of the State Dept called CA/OCS/ACS (Consular Affairs/Overseas Citizen Services/American Citizen Services).
The CA/OCS/ACS Division Chief for Europe is Andy T. Miller, 202-736-2452. Perhaps he or someone at that number might be of assistance or give you the e-mail address/phone of the correct person to contact.
The Acting Director of CA/OCS/ACS is Hugo Rodriguez, 202-739-4996.
The street address of both, btw, is 4th Floor SA-29, 2201 C Street NW, Washingon, DC 20520.
If you’re an everyday person with a straightforward renunciation, I wouldn’t be worried at all that there’s a problem with it. The length of time in issuing CLNs seems to be erratic and too slow due to the bureauracy itself (swamped and/or disorganised or something), not related to the CLN application itself. So I wouldn’t be worried about it being issued or not. That being said, for practical purposes you really do need it and six months is a long time.
The CLN approvals office is apparently divided into six zones and I heard (secondhand) that it was a staffing issue in the Canada zone causing the one year delays. If Europe is slowing down, I wonder if its something like that?
@pacifica
thanks a lot. that is really good information on who to contact.
i will wait another few weeks and, if no result, will try to contact them in DC.
When I renounced everything seemed fine and they were very polite and I paid $450. and they said 4-6 weeks. so i am surprised.
thanks again:)
@Petros and @Pacifica, many thanks for your encouragement and reassurances.
*I was asked why I was renouncing, I gave a short and vague answer. Nothing more was asked. The vice council was polite professional and friendly. I don’t think anyone should have any fear, and I don’t see any need for the additional expense of legal advice.