Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  2. @Almost Out?, discussed here.  Nobody knows, although the consensus view is, it seems, “soon”.  It’ll probably help with a sense of completion if you fill out the draft as it stands, ready to simply copy onto the final version when ready.

  3. For those actively reading this thread, and making those renunciation decisions this story might interest you.

    It was published yesterday in The Independent

    Land of the flee: why, despite Obama’s re-election, Americans are renouncing citizenship in droves

    Since President Obama took office in January 2008, nearly 5,000 people have voluntarily surrendered their American passports, according to data made available by The United States Office of the Federal Register. Last year alone, nearly 1,800 US citizens went rogue, compared to about 230 four years ago. Renunciation figures shot up shortly after the UBS scandal of 2008, when the Swiss bank was caught helping thousands of Americans evade taxes, a revelation that led to tighter restrictions on overseas bank accounts. Many in the expat community believe that the US government has gone too far in its monitoring of foreign bank accounts and taxing on assets and worldwide income. And for the defectors, financial freedom has become more important than heritage.

  5. Wow, look at this excerpt; …”The Swiss bank sent out American IRS W-9 forms (taxpayer
    identification), asking clients to sign these, as well as a form where
    they agree to renounce protection under Swiss data protection laws “to
    the extent necessary for reporting     …”. The “extent” is partially
    clarified by a list that ends with “and any other information regarding
    the Relationship which may be requested  or required by the IRS    .””….

    ““With this Authorization, the Client hereby expressly waives any
    protection or right under Swiss bank-client confidentiality and data
    protection laws     to the extent necessary for the reporting of any Data
    hereunder. Further, the Client accepts and acknowledges that any Data
    that the bank discloses hereunder to the IRS will be subject to the laws
    of the US and will not be covered by Swiss law.    ”

    So now both Swiss and US law and justice rests in the cases of not only US citizens, but also their non-US joint account holders and spouses. No rights if you are a US citizen or married to one.

    Aren’t there some contracts which cannot be binding if they are in essential conflict under more powerful laws in place at the time? Someone could agree to hand over their firstborn to the bank if they default on their mortgage, but that could never be legally binding. You could sign that, but it would be an empty contract.

  6. *Unfortunately, as we’ve found, if the US wants something they go after it and never mind what laws it may break, be they US or foreign ones.  Whether anyone would bother taking the matter to a Swiss court for judgement I just don’t know.  Although given the expense it’s probably cheaper to renounce as soon as you can so you can prove to the bank you’re no longer an “unwanted US citizen”.  It’s those who have no other option than to remain an American citizen who, due to work, lives abroad and will suffer this and more before the US government realises what harm it’s doing to its own people.

    If all the banks in Switzerland eventually drop US citizens I don’t know how people are going to survive.  You need a bank account to have your salary paid into – if you can’t get one what are you supposed to do?

  7. My apologies if this has been answered already.  Has anyone had problems taking children who have a claim to US citizenship (ie: they are US citizens at birth, because they have US citizen parents, but haven’t applied for a Record of Birth Abroad) across the US border without a US passport?  I had problems with this once, coming into the US from overseas.  The customs officer told me the kids needed to have US passports.  It is clear they have a claim to US citizenship because they are travelling with a US citizen parent.  Any advice would be appreciated.       

  11. The Dr. Laurie Roth Show: “High price tag for leaving the wrong state or country”

    http://therothshow.com/2012/12/high-price-tag-for-leaving-the-wrong-state-or-country/

    From the article:

    “Recently I heard of a similar punishment [exit] tax offered up as legislation in California. Because record numbers of the wealthy and business owners are leaving the state due to out of control taxation and regulation, Legislators are in a panic. Their plan is to try and pass a bill that will restrict wealthy California folks and earners to face a huge penalty and ‘assessment’ on their real estate and other financial assets if they leave the state.” 

    The author invites interested parties to join her on her National radio show which airs each day from 7-10pm PAC at http://www.therothshow.com. 

  12. @John Brown…. a California Exit Tax… How interesting. It would actually be a good thing if they started implementing some global taxation scheme. i.e. Californians would owe taxes to the state of California wherever they move, with some income exclusion if they pay taxes in other states. This way, at least Californians would understand what expats are going through.

  14. Always looking for the appropriate video about how it must feel for an American navigating the renunciation process.  It is sometimes compared to a mine field, but when I saw this crossing of the Columbia Bar, I thought that it is exactly how you feel when you discover your FBAR problem.  It just makes you sick to your stomach, and wondering if you will survive the experience.  Talk about being emotionally tossed about!

  15. Well, Monday’s the day.

    I’ve got my appointment in Toronto, I’ve got my forms 4079 and 4081 completed and ready for signatures in front of Consular staff, I’ve produced a written declaration to attach to the forms, and I was even able to get an official birth certificate from the state of New York.  I will take along my Canadian citizenship card and my passport (though I’m not sure why I’d need the latter)……..

    Wish me luck!

  16. I / WE wish you the best of luck on Monday, Lost-in-London. It sounds like you’ve got your ducks in a row for claiming your relinquishment. I’ve got your line ready in the R&R database when you report the completion of your appointment, hopefully your one and only required. There are many successful relinquishments, one appointment required, reported for Toronto (unlike some obstructions we have seen at the Vancouver Consulate).

    All the best — many will be thinking of you as you enter the Toronto Consulate.

  17. @Lost in London, for some reason the Toronto consulate asked me to bring the full page commemorative certificate, not the legal, true citizenship card.  Another way that the bastards have no regard for the laws of other countries.  I don’t suppose it matters if you are renouncing, but if relinquishing, you want to show them that you became a Canadian.  In that case, if you received the commemorative certificate, then bring it along with a photocopy.  It can’t hurt.

  18. Hi, Lost in London.  I did mine at Toronto, too.  I was in and out in about a hour (mostly waiting time) and the people there were very pleasant.  They told me to bring my passport or, if I didn’t have one, my driver’s licence, because they want to see current photo id.

  20. Petros –

    For some reason the Toronto consulate asked me to bring the full page
    commemorative certificate, not the legal, true citizenship card.

    The reason is apparent, and you can blame Canada. When I compare card with certificate, the card bears a two-digit date while the certificate states full day and month and year.

  21. @Lost in London,

    Re my comment yesterday, Schubert just told me that his wife was asked for her driver’s licence at Toronto last Spring.  You’ll probably have one on you anyway, and if you don’t have one, I wouldn’t worry that it’s a deal-breaker.  They’re very reasonable people there. Just wanted to let you know.

    Have a good day tomorrow!

  24. Question 1: If someone is considered a citizen of a country other than the USA at birth, i.e., via jus sanguinis, if that right of citizenship (by getting a passport) is not exercised until decades after the person is born, is it still possible to relinquish citizenship?  I assume it is as this citizenship is being claimed/activated/proved with the intention of losing US citizenship.

    Question 2: If one relinquishes based on a jus sanguinis citizenship that was only recently activated and if they are living in the country of that citizenship, are they considered eligible to avoid the exit tax?  The rules for not having to pay the exit tax are that you have been a citizen of a foreign country since birth and you live in the country of that citizenship at the time you give up your citizenship.

  25. @Lisa

    I’m not sure if you also read and post over at the englishforum.ch, but I mentioned there once that I’m pretty much in the same situation as you. I was born in the US and left after high school to complete an apprenticeship here in CH. My parents were both born in CH and left for the US before I was born. So according to Swiss law I should be regarded as acquiring CH citizenship as of the day of birth. The law does not say that one is able to apply for citizenship at birth, it clearly states that one is considered a citizen at birth if both parents are CH and married at the time of birth.

    I think it is comparable to the way the US might inflict US citizenship on a person if they find out that the parent/ parents would have be able to register the child’s birth at the US consulate but decided not too. I think this is what is called the “unknowing US person”

     

    Check this page, sorry it’s in German. I think Article 1 is pretty clear.

     http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/c141_0.html

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