Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Lost in London
Good for you. It sounds like you have made a decision. Like you, it is not in my nature, to go the ‘full ostrich’ route. I did not come to Canada until I was 18 but like you, I have not considered myself an American since 1972 when I became a Canadian.
You may find that you have to book an appointment with the consulate online rather than on the phone. I assume you would use the Toronto consulate. It sounds like they are really great to deal with. In addition to DS-4079 filled out, I was also required to present DS-4081 for my appt for ‘relinquishment’. In addition, I took the opportunity to have a statement written out (they attached it to DS-4081), stating why I believed I had expatriated in 1972. And of course, you would need things like Cdn. citizenship documents, birth certificate, marriage certificate (if there has been a name change) etc.
Good luck to you. I am sure things will go smoothly.
As Tiger suggests, in a relinquishment case, it’s a very good idea to supplement your 4079 with a statement in which you can further illustrate that your relinquishing act was intentional, and very importantly, how your post-relinquishment conduct was consistent with having relinquished. Some people have their statement notarised, some don’t. Statement is not strictly required — as you’ve read, things vary a bit between consulates –butHalifax
They might want an original birth certificate. I thought they had specified that, but I had one anyway, so I didn’t think much about it. Maybe another Torontonian can weigh in here. I see Hazy’s just reported on the Consulate Report thread that he did not need an original at another consulate. If you do, check the NY State Dept of Health website to get one. Not sure about NY specifically, but a few people have reported getting their US birth certificates within a couple of weeks (Tiger got hers couriered within a week).
So far no one who has reported to Brock on crossing or flying to the US after applying for or receiving a CLN has reported any problems..
*
@Lost in London
I agree with you that you probably don’t need a lawyer as your case seems straightforward. I relinquished recently and had consulted an immigration lawyer but it really wasn’t necessary as there is so much information here on the Consulate Report Directory as to what to expect and what is required. In retrospect, if I had it to do again and were going to get “expert” advice, it would be in the field of taxation. As Calgary said though, it’s likely worthwhile applying for a new “original” birth certificate while you wait for an appointment.
@ all
Speaking of taxation, I have been wondering if a thread could be started and kept on the sidebar strictly for people’s anecdotal experiences with taxation, something along the lines of the Consular Report directory. For instance I know some people have asked if they can do five years of taxes and FBAR’s and then renounce. So how has that worked for those who have done this? Does the IRS ever let you know if you are free and clear?
How long does that take? For those who have relinquished, what if anything, are people going to do about notifying the IRS you have done so. How exactly would you go about doing that? In Form 4081 where it states “With regard to US taxation consequences I understand that I must contact the US Internal Revenue Service”, what does that mean exactly? Does it mean if I have questions I should contact them, or does it mean that they consider it mandatory to contact them? What are relinquishers’ experiences with this?
Anyway, just a thought. I know that a lot of this information is on IBS already, but it’s on many different threads and hard to locate. The Consular Report Directory has been wonderfully helpful to so many people and I think a separate “taxation” thread could be too, even if it was not possible to be organize it in the same way as the Consular Directory is.
@hijacked
What a great idea re the separate thread on taxation, especially for ‘relinquishers’. I believe those that ‘renounce’ are obligated to file taxes, but that is not the case for all ‘relinquishers’.
*I too think that would be a good idea. A lot of the info is in the Expat Taxes and FBAR section, but I think having actual experiences together with the info all in one place would make it easier for people to find. A Tax Report Directory would complement the Consular Report Directory very nicely.
*Hello. I am hoping this gets posted to the right thread.
I have been researching the implications of renunciation and had a question regarding the exemption on Form 8854. The question asks “Did you become at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country…”
I was born in the US to an American father and Swiss mother. At the time I was born, children born outside Switzerland to Swiss fathers and foreign mothers were granted Swiss citizenship automatically but not the children of Swiss mothers and foreign fathers. This discrimination was halted in the 1980s and made retroactive. I believe the law as it stands now is that you are automatically Swiss from birth and have until your 22nd birthday to register. I believe this is the law under which my grandfather applied on my behalf and under which I was registered as Swiss in 1988. I was hoping the Swiss consulate would tell me that I was, after the fact, Swiss from birth but they just said their computer says I was Swiss by registration.
Can I answer yes? Maybe I’m reading the “at birth” bit too narrowly. Strange how reading IRS forms makes you feel paranoid. I would feel very comfortable answering yes if the question asked if you acquired dual nationality as a result of your birth. Maybe I need to ask a more precise question of the Swiss consulate.
I can meet the other qualifications for the exemption if I move to Switzerland and establish tax residency.
*Edelweiss
Take a look at this web site and read the PDF file.
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/c141_0.html
It is in German, but the way I read Art. 1 is that if your MOTHER was Swiss you are automatically Swiss at birth. Print it out and take it to the Swiss consulate and have them explain it to you. It’s their job to help Swiss Citizens, I hope 🙂
I’m in the same situation as you are. I was born in the US and my parents are both Swiss. My father registered me at the Swiss consulate just before I graduated from high school, so my records probably also say (by registration). I moved to Switzerland before the age of 22. I guess when the time comes we will need documentation proving our parent’s Swiss citizenship and therefore be able to prove, acc. to Swiss law, that we are Swiss at birth.
Seems discussion of US renunciants and travelling with a CLN has made it to websites like this official UK one:
http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/travel-advice/usa-advice
Is dual nationality allowed?
Under US law if you or your children are dual UK-US nationals
travelling between both countries, you should travel with both
passports. US law also requires that dual US nationals use their US
passport to enter and exit the country – those who attempt to travel on
their foreign passport risk being denied boarding. Further information
can be obtained from the US State Department (see above).
“What do I do if I have renounced my US citizenship?
If you have renounced your US citizenship, you should carry a copy
of your Certificate of Loss of Nationality when you travel to or from
the US. If you do not, you may not be allowed to board your aircraft
.”
*UncleTell
Thanks for the link.
For a long time, I was under the impression that my grandfather had applied for citizenship for me and that citizenship was granted in 1988. But the more I read about the law as it stands today I think that, ex post facto, citizenship had been extended to me at birth it just took a really long time to claim it.
To complicate matters further, the DS-4079 form (which I understand doesn’t strictly apply to a renunciation but is frequently required by consular staff) draws a distinction between acquiring a second citizenship through a) birth b) marriage c) naturalisation or registration and requires a date. I realise that it’s a different department but I fear that the IRS might think about it the same way particularly if it suits them.
*@All who have been through the renouncation process.. I have a question??? In regards to the forms on line for renouncing, should the info be filled out (typed in) on line and printed off or do most just print off the forms and fill it in with pen.. I don’t know if it matters or not?? or which way they prefer??
@saddened,
Who cares what they prefer? It varies from Consulate to Consulate. Give it to them in as many ways as you can. (And, you will be better prepared for your appointment by having answered the questions beforehand even if they don’t accept the one you have printed out and taken there.)
@Saddened. I agree with Calgary. I typed and printed mine out, adding a few words in pen where I ran out of room to type on two questions. I don’t think it matters as long as they can read it.
*@Calgary and Pacifica, Thank you very much!
Saddened123 – In the spirit of FBAR filing suggestions (make work for them and not for yourself), I recommend filling out the paper form neatly by hand, with no additional text on extra sheets if that can be avoided. The form is not designed for typed input anyway.
*@usxcanda, Thank you very much for the advise!
Thank you all for your comments, opinions, and advice.
I will go ahead and write up some supporting documentation to file with the pre-requisite forms; not sure if I’ll bother getting it notarized though. I will also pursue getting a “real” copy of my birth certificate from the NY State Dept of Health. That seems like a worthwhile piece of documentation to have anyway.
In the mean time, I’ve booked an appointment with the Consulate in Toronto for December the 10th. That should give me plenty of time to get all my ducks in a row.
I will keep updating my progress here.
*@Lost-in-London, you have my best wishes for your appointment at the Toronto consulate in December. I had my appointment last June. As others have said, the people there are reasonable to deal with. You were lucky to get an appointment.
@All: As of now there are NO appointments left available at the Toronto consulate for this year, and none have become available for January yet, either. I wonder if there’s a policy to keep the bottleneck narrow.
@AnonAnon,
Someone pointed out to me that US Thanksgiving is fast approaching and then Christmas right around the corner after that. They are likely to be a bit more short-handed then and our renunciation needs will not take first priority.
*Hey all, looks like some of us might soon not be Americans at all. This is from the BBC website today:
“More than 100,000 Americans have petitioned the White House to allow their states to secede from the US, after President Barack Obama’s re-election.
The appeals were filed on the White House’s We the People website.
Most of the 20 states with petitions voted for Republican Mitt Romney.
The US constitution contains no provisions for states to secede from the union. By Monday night the White House had not responded.
In total, more than 20 petitions have been filed. One for Texas has reached the 25,000-signature threshold at which the White House promises a response.
The last time states officially seceded, the US Civil War followed.
Most of the petitions merely quote the opening line of America’s Declaration of Independence from Britain, in which America’s founders stated their right to “dissolve the political bands” and form a new nation.
Currently, the most popular petition is from Texas, which voted for Mr Romney by some 15 percentage points more than it did for the Democratic incumbent.
The text complains of “blatant abuses” of Americans’ rights.
It cites the Transportation Security Administration, whose staff have been accused of intrusive screening at airports.”
So depending on which States might secede you may no longer be “American”. Civil War anyone?
*Darn! I could have saved $450 bucks if I had virtually moved to Texas instead of Florida. Silly me, my ancestry helped to create Texas!
has Chicago Illinois seceded? how would I look that up?
hmm or were you just making a joke? 😛
*No, no joke. Evidently there are now petitions in from all 50 states to secede from the Union. Six states have reached the threshold figure of 25,000 for a White House response.
Also some petitions from people saying that those who signed the secession petitions should be stripped of their US citizenship and deported, but only after they’ve paid their share of the national debt of course.
And lastly, there are around 5,000 in Austin who want to secede from Texas but remain part of the US.
There’s a thread on the whole thing at http://www.englishforum.ch under their Off Topic, then International Affairs section. It’s called US secession, Americans Abroad, FATCA.
The Independent: “Land of the flee: why, despite Obama’s re-election, Americans are renouncing citizenship in droves”
From the article:
“a growing number of citizens have renounced their home country, which they see as having an increasingly anti-expatriate government that’s only interested in collecting cash and giving virtually nothing in return.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/land-of-the-flee-why-despite-obamas-reelection-americans-are-renouncing-citizenship-in-droves-8329319.html
A very well written article. The author is an expat and understands the injustices expats face. She definitely deserves some comments.
*Best article about the subject I’ve read. Straight forward info without any added hyperbole. Wish a copy could be sent to every US Government official. Maybe then they’d begin to understand how a badly written law is causing chaos for ordinary citizens.
Hi All, I renounced in June then filed 5 years of taxes and now I just want to fill out the 8854, send it in and be done with the US. Does anyone know when the forms for the 2012 tax year will be available from the IRS?