Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Hi, Jeannie,
Please read everything at:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/ CONSULATE REPORT DIRECTORY (experiences at various Consulates as reported to Isaac Brock Society). All required Forms in pdf are also located in the Directory.
and
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/ (database of renunciations and relinquishments reported to Isaac Brock Society)
Note that the Vancouver Consulate is requiring two appointments vs usually just one appointment for Calgary. There have been fairly horrendous experiences at the Vancouver Consulate compared to others. You can book in Calgary, but you are not ready until you have gotten your Canadian Citizenship (you have to have a citizenship to be able to renounce or relinquish).
I (or someone else I’m sure) will provide more information regarding Vancouver.
P.S. I don’t think you would have to have a social security number to be able to relinquish. You have proof of being born in the US and a passport (how did you get the US passport with no social security number?).
P.S.S. No fee for relinquishment. $450 fee for renunciation of US citizenship, paid at time of renunciation appointment.
*Hi Calgary
when I filled out my passport form they had an area that said “if you do not have a social security number write 00 in this box” so I did and they sent me my passport. I phoned down to the social security office in the US and asked them if I had a number on account of my passport and they said no. In order to get a social security number I would have to give them my school records for every decade of my life. I told her I had no school records as I never went to school. so she had no answer for me so I couldn’t get my social security number. go figure.
@Jeannie,
That turned out to be your good luck that you could do that. Unless someone here has better information, I would say what you have is sufficient for a relinquishment — along with other documentation they may ask for like marriage and divorce certificates (presumably to prove changes in name).
Consider this (Calgary):
to this (Vancouver):
While you’re waiting for your Canadian citizenship (hope it’s soon), read, read, read as much as you can on our site. There is a lot of information that will be helpful — and a lot of support for whatever you decide to do. Glad you found this site!
*I have been reading all of this stuff that’s why I asked about the calgary one. I noticed on the bottom of my post there is a countdown of time do you know what that means? sorry not used to blogging or whatever it is we are doing haha.
Also I would very much like to ask you a question in private is that do able on this site? sorry computer iliterate:P
Hi Jeannie,
Re:
We have some more information about these two procedures in this post, “Renunciation and Relinquishment: What are the Differences? Is there a Difference?”
Jeannie,
We have a Forum that you can access at the top of the Isaac Brock Home Page that is less public (or someone that has access to the email you used could contact you by email if OK).
The countdown is probably the time you are given to edit your post, if you want to change something or notice a mistake???
The countdown at the bottom of your comment is the amount of time you have left to edit it.
*yes! for sure, using my email would be fine thank you:)
*ohh editing it I thought it was something like on mission impossible you know “your mission jim should you decide to accept it” and then Poof! once he gets the info:P
@Jeannie,
Welcome to IBS. Both calgary and Pacifica are giving you good advice (as they always do). Continue to read and learn as much as possible. As was stated above, you would probably be allowed to ‘relinquish’ as of the date you become a Canadian citizen. Read Petros’ story – that is what he did – took out Canadian citizenship with the ‘intent’ to lose his U.S. citizenship, booked an appointment with the Toronto consulate to apply for a backdated CLN (backdated to the date of Canadian citizenship). He did bring his tax returns with the U.S. up to date.
As far as where to go to report your relinquishment – I am the person above who had my appointment in Vancouver. Believe me, I wish my appointment had been in Calgary. The Vancouver consulate was unbelieveably demanding of my documents and also, I am now required to attend a 2nd appointment. I am still awaiting a response from them to book the next appointment.
Good luck, Jeannie and again, welcome to IBS.
*Thank you Tiger it is nice to talk to people about this stuff, everybody has been very helpfull and kind:)
For Green Card relinquishment, if you want to avoid the long term resident exit tax, then you need to know the time lines. Phil Hodgens has a post about that here.
http://hodgen.com/london-embassy-turnaround-time-for-green-cards/
*I found a week ago about all this ‘mess’ with the IRS. I was seriously thinking of going down the ‘streamlined’ approach, but am having second thoughts about this and am afraid of the lobster pot. I have a normal Canadian financial situation (RESPs in mutual funds, etc), but worried that the IRS might not think I am ‘low risk’, worried about the complexities of reporting and getting something wrong, etc.
I made an appointment with US embassy to get a SSN, but I am going to cancel that while I think some more, and get a chance to talk to both a tax accountant recommended to me by someone on this board. Also, I will also find and talk to a good immigration lawyer before I proceed in any direction.
One of the options I am considering is to renounce, using the dual citizenship at birth ‘loophole’, to avoid exit tax. HOWEVER, there is ONE requirement under that ‘having no substantial ties to the US), that I dont think I meet, BUT, it could be argued that I do. When I was in my early 20’s I applied for a US passport. I never signed it, and I never used it, so therefore it was never a VALID passport. So in a sense, I never ‘held a US passport’, at least not a VALID one.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Kathleen – Your situation and forlorn hopes remind me of the recent case of Woofy. See if the Brock search box will let you get at the Woofy stuff.
@ Just Me
Thank you for finding that Phil Hodgen’s post regarding green card abandonment. However, I am still in limbo having had NO response at all from USCIS since I sent in my I-407 6 months ago (mailed directly to their office in Mesquite, TX, as per instructions from the Calgary US Consulate). My follow-up letters and even my attempts to obtain USCIS e-mail or telephone contact information have proven futile. It’s amazing that someone can get their stamped I-407 in a matter of days in London! In my I-407 cover letter I explained to them that I had actually abandoned my green card over 15 years ago but I did not know until this year that a form was required to do that officially. Perhaps this is just too confusing for them to deal with so my whole application has been stashed in the disregard drawer in that office — including my old green card which I had truly believed for many years to be expired, completely null and void. Since I will never go the USA again (haven’t been there in over 15 years anyway) I am just going to continue being what I am, a Canadian only, and there will be no 8854 in my foreseeable future. This may sound nonchalant but it is not easy on me at all because I still have horrible sleepless nights wondering what the consequences of my inadvertent past failure to know about one particular form will be.
@ Kathleen, I don’t think it’s so much if the passport was signed or used, but that applying for a passport is, in itself, an acknolwedgement by the person that are a citizen of the country.
I’m not sure how they define “substantial ties” regarding a dual citizen at birth (I don’t know much about this as I’m a relinquisher). But I don’t think that a passport would prevent you from being exempted from exit tax if you’re renouncing as a dual citizen at birth, from what I’ve read about the 8854.
As I understand it, if you’re renouncing as a “dual citizen at birth,” then of course you were a citizen up until the day you renounced – so, entitled to a passport – but as a “dual citizen at birth” would have the benefit of skipping part 4(b) on the 8854 and not being a “covered expatriate” and not being charged exit tax.
If a person claimed to have relinquished and then applied a passport as a USC after the date they claimed to have relinquished, that would be a pretty clear indicator that they hadn’t relinquished their citizenship. So, a passport would matter in a relinquishment case but does not have any bearing on a renunciation.
Definitely a good idea to do some more research/consultation before going to an embassy/consulate or filing with IRS. Also, you can find out a bit in advance about what it’s like dealing with a particular embassy or consulate (they differ somewhat) if you take a look at the Consulate Report Directory.
Help, I’m very confused and somewhat embarrassed to admit that this has just caught up to me; I’ve always done my own taxes and have somehow been ignorant of the IRS requirements until very recently when the OVDI requirements set out in September came to my attention. I’ve done a fair bit of reading here but am looking for confirmation that I’m headed in the right direction.
My situation; I’m a 48 year old married male in SW Ontario. I’ve filed taxes in Canada since I began working some 30 years ago, have never broken the law, and am an all-around productive Canadian citizen. I own a home, and have all the usual RRSP’s, TFSA’s, RESP’s, etc. that one amasses as a prosperous family. I was born in the New York to landed immigrants who subsequently moved to Canada when I was less than 2 years old (in 1965). I travelled on my mother’s German passport and have never applied for or owned a U.S. passport. I don’t have a U.S. social insurance number or a green card and have never voted in the states. I have never earned money in the U.S. either. In fact, the only “birth certificate” I own is a worn photocopy of a photocopy. I became a naturalized Canadian citizen in 1982 and have since had Canadian passports wherein my place of birth is listed as the United States. I have been told by border officials at various times that I am still an American citizen because I’ve never renounced my citizenship in front of an american judge.
Obviously, my recent awareness has me spooked; the IRS filing requirements and FBAR implications scare me to no end. Given the date of my Canadian citizenship (pre 1986), it’s my understanding that I should be eligible for a CLN backdated to 1982 thereby avoiding the requirement for ANY filings to the IRS.
I’ve downloaded forms DS-4081 and DS-4079. Can I simply fill them out and make an appointment with the embassy on Bay Street in Toronto? Should I involve an immigration lawyer? Will my passport be “flagged” so that issues will ensue every time I cross the border?
My case should – I think – really be a simple one. I cannot think of any reason I’d be denied a CLN but, on the other hand, I’ve never been hassled before and I’m almost afraid of bringing it up and landing on their “radar”!
Suggestions?
Kathleen,
Why do you refer to the dual citizen issue as a “loophole” The 8854 (IRS form for renounciants) in 2009 (when I first looked into renouncing) had something about not having substantive ties to the US. As I remember it, it didn’t involve passports and SSN’s, but I couldn’t use it because I lived in the US for a few years when I was much younger. However, last time I looked, that bit was gone. If you look at the current form and instgructions, there is nothing about passports or SSN’s.. You just have to not have lived in the US for more than 10 of the last 15 years, and be living in and fully liable for taxes to the country in which you also got citizenship at birth.
If you have seen something in the current forms or instructions about “substantive presence” which looks like it might cover passports, I would like to see it, as I haven’t come across it anywhere.
As far as I am concerned, the worst part is that ou also have to certify you have been in compliance with the IRS for the last 5 years, which is the biggest hurdle, and which is going to make you wish you didn’t have RESP’s and/or mutual funds.
@Lost-in-London:
Welcome to IBS! To begin, you might wish to read the thread “Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995?”. As an opinion, to the extent that you have not in some way acted as though you were a US citizen since naturalizing in Canada in 1982, e.g., voting in a US election, you relinquished your US citizenship in 1982. For purposes of crossing the US border and to convince bank managers that you are a Canadian as FATCA is rolled out in Canada, you might wish to obtain a CLN backdated to 1982, the time of your US citizenship relinquishment. This would be done at a US consulate or the US embassy in Canada.
*
*My wife wants to renounce, but
a) she needs her Canadian citizenship
b) she has to run the gauntlet of 5 years of tax filing along with the requisite late fines and penalties, and we have NO investments whatsoever.
c) The threat of penalties is financially crippling to the point where we won’t have any money left at all. We make $35,000 an year in total family income. So where would we have the money to pay for $57,000 penalties if such penalties were assessed.
The fear generated has pretty much frozen us in a state of “Damned if we do; damned if we don’t?” So…what the hell to do???
@ Lost-in-London,
Welcome to the IBS website. Assuming you have done nothing since 1982 to indicate that you still believed yourself to be an American – ie applied for a U.S.passport, voted in a U.S. election, filed taxes etc., I believe you can file for a back-dated CLN based on your 1982 expatriating act.
My expatriating act took place in 1972 and I have recently had my first appointment at the U.S.consulate in Vancouver. (They unlike other consulates require two appointments. I am presently awaiting the 2nd appointment). At least two American tax lawyers have posted on this site that those of us who ‘relinquished’ prior to 1986, have no filing obligations.
The worse thing you could do, IMO, is to enter a disclosure program or start filing U.S. tax returns. Also, I do know quite a few people, who have chosen to go the ‘full ostrich’ route and not apply for a back dated CLN. The decision must be your own and it is important that you educate yourself regarding the options available to you.
*Kathleen. Be very very careful. If you were to use the dual citizen at birth route (it’s not a loophole) supposedly you would still be a covered expatriate if you didn’t certify that you were tax compliant for the previous 5 years. If you were to file 5 yrs. worth of tax returns, who knows what failure to file penalties they could come up with.
Filing 5 years worth is no easy or risk free matter. If you have no ties it could possibly be better to forget the whole thing. Some of the cross border lawyers and accountants have the best interests of themselves at heart rather than the best interests of their clients. Buyer beware.
*Lost-in London. Firstly don’t do ANYTHING to admit that you could possibly be a US person. AS far as you are concerned, you gave it up when you became Canadian.
You can apply for a CLN or you can ignore the whole thing -your choice. If you apply for a CLN, your age when you became Canadian may become an issue. I hope you were 18. Then you have to assert that when you became Canadian you absolutely intended to give up US citizenship.
My feeling about US border guys telling you you are/could be American is some of them are genuinely trying to be helpful as opposed to being threatening. I.e. “Hey buddy you can get an American passport if you want” as opposed to “Hey Bud you need to get an American passport.”
@Kathleen,
From (DRAFT which will become part of a ebook being written by Phil Hodgen):
Thanks to everyone who responded; I think I’ve come to a decision and it’s really just the logistics I need to work out now.
@Innocente Thanks for the link; the thread was most interesting.
@tiger I’m not sure how many visits it might take in Toronto – hopefully only one. I have no intention of entering the disclosure programs; to my way of thinking they are criminal in their intent! I’m also not the type to go “full ostrich” though my ignorance in the whole matter basically puts me in that category to date.
@Duke of Devon As far as I’m concerned, I’m NOT a US person; the fact that I was born there is the ONLY reason someone might think so though as indicated I’ve never had a US SIN or passport and have never earned income there or voted, etc. It was 6 months after I turned 18 that I naturalized as a Canadian citizen (wan’t even 2 yet when I was relocated to Canada) and it was absolutely my intention to give up all ties with the US.
So, I’m off to find the # of the consulate and make a ‘phone call. As my case is pretty clear, I don’t think I’ll involve any lawyers; I’ll just take the completed DS-4079 with me and demonstrate how my pre-1982 acquisition of Canadian citizenship (at the attained age of 18) qualifies as an act of Expatriation and that I intended that act to qualify as a “giving up” of any claim to US citizenship. I’ll back that up with the assertion that I’ve never requested or owned a US SIN or passport, etc. I’ll ask for a CLN backdated to 1982 and hope/assume that this nullifies any IRS requirements for the last 30 years.
Am I being naive in assuming that this is all I need do? Can anyone think of any other pitfalls I might encounter?
In any case, I’ll keep updating my progress here.