Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Cornwiscal, did you ever glance at what I wrote? Gifts to spouses are not classified as gifts! He wouldn’t be breaking any rules or laws. It’s on the IRS website! There’s only a yearly limit if you’re married to a foreigner.
*geeez I did read what you posted. You appear to be confused. Gifts to non-American spouses are not exempt from the gift and estate tax regimes.
Gifts over 136,000 per year including those to your ‘foreign’ spouse are non-exempt and are supposed to be reported.
There is a 5,000,000 lifetime exemption. This is cumulative for prior years. It is due to be reduced to 1,000,000 at the end of this year.
hijacked 2012 asked if this would be useful in reducing assets to less than 650,000 for purposes of the exit tax. He was asking about a non-American spouse. That is someone who is not exempt from the gift tax rules.
There isn’t much point as then a gift tax return would be needed. It isn’t worth the trouble if your CLN is from years ago. If recent, and if you wan’t to play by their rules, it might be possible to do something . Professional advice would then be a good idea.
Cornwiscall, please post a source. If you’re right and I’m wrong, then I can sue a couple of companies! But if you’re wrong, I and a few hundred people, maybe thousands can sue YOU!) Every Brocker is a friend, but please…. post sources!
TurboTax is reliable. When Timothy Geitner (Petros’s favourite friend! Heheh) tried to blame TurboTax for his under-payment of taxes, the courts threw out his defense. They are a company.. they don’t want the US Gov against them.
Post sources!
Cornwiscal, Hijaked, Petros, et all… this is a very good reason why sources must always be given. Did I make a print-out of the TurboTax page. You bet you a$$ I did!!!
This is why we live in societies where we have professionals and professionals have PROFESSIONAL LIABILITY INSURANCE! If a professional gives you incorrect information, it’s their fault. If you give them correct information and then they forge something, that’s their fault. Conversely, if they get you out of the US mess, you have them to thank for it.
*Geeez I’m using the same source you are. (Among others) This is copied from your source.
If you read this sentence the way it is meant to be read, you will understand that gifts to foreign i.e. non-American spouses are subject to the annual limit . They do not escape the gift tax or estate tax net. There is a cumulative $5million lifetime exemption. This is supposed to decrease to $1 million next year. There is no point in threatening to sue anybody. I think we have a difference in interpretation. I presumed that hijacked 2012 was talking about gifting assets greater than $136,000
*@Hijacked
Just to clarify, to NOT be a covered expat, your assets need to be below 2 million and any capital gain on those assets has an exemption of $650,000 before tax kicks in.
Guy.. Corniwisalll, just read the page in its *entirety*. Worst case scenario: USP overseas transfers TOO much. He/she didn’t know. This information I posted isn’t even on the IRS website, rather, on a trusted software provider,WTF!! Deceptive.. you bet!!! Therein lies the problem…..!!
I *Do* admire you saying to “follow the rules” – I have all this time. And people should be.
But since 2008, “the game” is getting more complicated and too difficult to play (maybe even for “professionals”.). Personallly, I don’t know where you stand, but I will renounce by the end of the year, guaranteed.
@hijacked, @tiger
Thanks for your comments. What about the notification letter to the IRS as per DS-4081?
@ ExAmerican,
From my reading of 4081, I interpret that line in 4081 as “in order to find out what I have to do about filing tax in my situation, I have to contact IRS”, and I interpret “contact” as looking at the IRS website, not as a formal notification nor as two-way contact (such as a phone call to ask questions).
Dept of State does not provide information on tax matters — they’re probably not even allowed to, as it’s not their mandate nor have they expertise in the area of tax — and I interpret that line of the 4081 as DoS saying “We’re informing you that you may have tax responsibilities. It’s our responsibility to make sure you know that. We’ve done out duty of informing you. Now, it’s up to you to find out what those responsibilities are.”
Regarding pre-1994 relinquishments, it seems that people are either doing 5 years of back forms and 8854 … or not doing anything with IRS at all (mostly the latter it looks like from posts here). The only reference to someone notifying IRS by letter that they relinquished pre-1994 that I’m aware of is in the post you cite. One thing that crosses my mind is that if you believe you are exempt from IRS obligations because you’re pre-1994 and notify them, you’re definitely putting yourself on their radar and you can’t be sure they’ll agree with you.
I think the assumption is pretty clear they expect you to communicate with the IRS. Contacting IRS through their website does not seem to cut it. I would not like to be the one explaining this to the IRS at the border or inside the USA.
@Joe, re my above comment,
As I read point 11 on the 4081 (Statement of Understanding of Consequences):
“My renunciation/relinquishment may not exempt me from US income taxation. With regard to United States taxation consequences, I understand that I must contact the United States Internal Revenue Service.”
my take is that you’re agreeing to find out what the tax consequences (your responsibilities) are, but I don’t see anything in the 4081 about notifying IRS that you have relinquished/renounced. Of course, if you go to the IRS website (my interpretation of contact), it basicaIly says “file these forms.” Ditto, I’m sure, if you phoned them to find out.
As we often discuss here, some people (and experts) feel that what IRS says a relinquisher must do does not apply to the pre-1994 people. Such people will act accordingly.
All other people (all post-1994 people, and those pre-1994 people who feel that it does apply retroactively) presumably would then file the forms as required by IRS.
I’m not aware of any requirement for people to notify IRS that they have relinquished/renounced, such as by letter, which is what started this discussion [Ex-american, 7.35 am]. However, the DOS manual does state that DOS is to notify IRS of each CLN they issue.
Just clarifying my 2c.
*As I have pointed out before if you are reliquishing you DO NOT have to fill out DS 4081 you can simply fill out 4079 which says nothing about taxation. On 4079 you are simply reporting a previously occurred act. Now having said the Consulate is strongly encouraged to make you fill out 4081 basically to please the IRS. Its up to you I guess as to whether you wish to insist on only filling out 4079.
*Husband: 1942 born in USA; 1986 naturalized in Canada
Wife: 1948 born in Germany; 1963 naturalized in USA; 1990 naturalized in Canada
1981-present: married
1994-2008 lived in USA
Both receiving Social Security.
If both renouce US citizenship and then husband dies, will wife be elegible for Survivor Social Security?
I have a renunciaton appointment for November. Sometime within the next few years I will probably be receiving inheritance from my American grandfather.
Will the fact that I will no longer be American result in any complications for the executor or myself?
Thanks in advance.
*@Shaggy –
Not as things stand now, no. Hard to tell what the future holds.
Weirdly your estate *will* have issues leaving money to an American citizen (or, rather the inheritor will be punitively taxed); this order of priorities doesn’t make a lot of sense, but there you are.
I contacted the US consulate in Halifax on September 12 with a request for information on relinquishment. I bolded relinquishment in my email. On September 14 I received a reply about renounciation. However, the information and instructions sent to me will do for relinquishment.
I think all US consulates and embassies are a bit distracted right now.
My question here is about providing an affidavit with Form 4979. I know there has been some discussion about this, but I’m not clear if it is just a good idea to provide one or is not necessary.
A supporting statement or affidavit for relinquishment is not strictly required, but I thought it was a very good idea, so I could further explain my intent years ago at the time I performed the relinquishing act and to supplement my 4079 with additional examples of my lack of connection to the US since that date.
Johnnb mentioned in his Halifax report that he had not provided a statement and the consulate staffer suggested he write one up whilst he was there, which he did.
I got my statement notarised, making it an affidavit. But since then, I’ve been thinking and my gut feeling is it probably doesn’t matter if it’s an affidavit or just a statement, as it’s not like they’re trying to trip you up and it’s not an adversarial proceeding. But that’s just my gut feeling, my 2c, and as mentioned I did get mine notarised.
@ Pacifica
Thanks for your reply. You’ve been so helpful to many on this site.
*Here are the guidelines for renouncing US citizens:
*Interesting info Swisspinoy. Let’s you see it from the interviewer’s side of things and what they’re supposed to do to dissuade you.
Buried in the accumulated trove of Brock comment is material that would be useful on this topic, says my personal wetware. Lacking the proper shovel to dig into the heap, I simply ask this question on behalf of another person:
If an accidental US person in Canada lacks substantiating paperwork, yet that person has good reason to believe that parents registered Canadian birth abroad, what is the protocol for extracting that record of birth registration with Canada from Canadian officialdom?
Everything is online. It’s $75. I’ve seen processing times stated from 5 months to 21 months. This is just the search to see if a birth abroad was registered and certificate was issued. Look around the links and you’ll find what to do if it was issued but lost. I don’t know what to tell you if the search finds that the birth was never registered.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/search.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/proof.asp
WhatAmI – Many thanks. Doesn’t our Brock system make IRS information provision look like *!&%?
*I am considering renouncing in Halifax. Can anyone tell me if this is done in one appointment or two ?
@Titus,
We have information reported here on Halifax — 3 relinquishments and 2 renunciations, each required only one appointment. Please refer to the Renounce & Relinquish database: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/ for statistics of renunciations and relinquishments for each Consulate, as reported by persons from this site.
and the Consulate Directory Report: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/ for details on actual experiences at each Consulate.
(If you decide to go ahead, we would sure love to include your information to help others at their starting points.) Good luck with your decision and thanks!