Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Thanks @Patricia; useful to get a sense of what the timelines are currently – and options re locations.
The below was posted today on the Swiss EnglishForum.ch:
“I just wanted to inform the forum that I had a meeting with a very well
connected person in the world of business and politics today and he said
that the wait time to get an appointment in Bern to give up US
citizenship is now 2 months.
Yes, at one point in time the waiting time for an appointment was well over a year but this has been cleaned up.
He did tell me that 2 of the 4 staff that interview you for expatriation
matters are very patriotic Americans so prepare for mental warfare.
And as I am sure you already know, you should make no mention that you
desire to give up citizenship for tax purposes. You should instead speak
more about your deep connections to Switzerland and that you do not
think people need to have more than one passport.
I have been in contact with two law firms today to get advice on next steps.
I know this issue is very emotional and complicated. But the US
government is only going to intensify its efforts in the future. Unless
you have an absolute crack preparing your US tax returns, you are at
significant risk. The fines for FATCA violations (even innocent ones
like forgetting you are a signatory on a foreign account) are heavy.
If you have no need to be a US citizen, it’s time to have a serious think about this issue.
If you think you might want to live there again, or this issue is just
too emotional, I understand. But prepare to pay up and suffer being
treated as a second class US citizen while you live in Switzerland.”
Based on the input from EnglishForum.ch comment above, there are now four US Embassy staff in Bern processing US citizenship renouncements. Let’s calculate the capacity that this one US Embassy has to process renunciations:
4 staff x 220 working days x 8 renunciations per day / 2 visits required per renunciation = 3’520 per year
The above assumes that the four staff in Bern work with renunciations full-time, one per hour, five days a week minus estimated holidays and vacation. Even if this is not the case, the “maximum” calculated renunciation capacity of that one US Embassy is nearly twice the number of 1’780 officially reported renunciations worldwide in 2011. And we know that there are many, many renunciations across Canada, in London and in numerous other locations across the globe. Preliminary conclusion: either the number of renunciations is skyrocketing in Switzerland in 2012 (not evidenced in the 1Q2012 statistics of 189 renunciants worldwide) or this is just more evidence that the official figures are defective or manipulated. Since the US government has lied many times over the years to its citizens, my vote would be that the numbers are manipulated.
Don’t know if this has already been posted at IBS. It is not an endorsement of this firm, or of the information they provide in their blog:
http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/current-relinquishment-cases-in-canada-demonstrate-the-need-for-guidance/
Current Relinquishment Cases in Canada Demonstrate the Need for Guidance
Posted on August 16, 2012
“Flott & Co.’s recent experience in assisting two former US
citizens seeking formal documentation of their prior loss of US
citizenship underscores the need for expanded guidance on the
relinquishment of US citizenship in the US Department of State Foreign
Affairs Manual (Volume 7 – Consular Affairs) (“FAM”).
In cases that appear to have been the first of their kind at US
consulates in two major Canadian cities, Flott & Co. clients met
confusion and inconsistency firsthand.”
also,
http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/clearer-guidance-sought-for-establishing-intent-to-expatriate/
*thnx for all the info from this site, but i have a question about which forms to fill out to renounce or to relinquish US citizenship . i have canadian citizenship thru naturalization since i was born in central america, then applied for US citizenship in 2006 and received it 2007, i lived in the US for about 6 yrs filed and paid taxes there, moved back to canada in 2006 , but did not file US taxes since then , because didnt know i had to, .Now do i relinquish or renounce my citizenship, since i dont see any advantage in keeping a US passport . thnx in advance for all the help
*Carlos, if you do not owe any taxes, then wait until the 1st of September. Then, file the past 3 years of tax returns and the past 6 years of FBAR’s. Once that has been cleared up, write to the embassy in Canada telling them that you want to renounce. They will probably send you DS-4080, DS-4081, “Renunciation letter March 2012”, “Renunciation Info Sheets” and “Renunciation Questionnaire”. Then, call to make an appointment, fill out the forms and then you will be well on the road to freedom, justice and equality.
If you owe any taxes, then there are many tax advisers, who charge high fees and have a long list of threats and scare tactics, who would love to talk to you.
In 1997 I believe I lost my US citizenship because I became a naturalized citizen of Sweden. I don’t remember what, if any, documents I might have signed. My last US passport was not canceled and I have no CLN and do not think I have ever seen one. I have been travelling to the states on visas or visa waiver programs since 1978. In November 2011 I was subjected to second screening at LAX and told that my US citizenship status was uncertain and that I had been arrested in 1963 for a moral turpitude. “I am going to let you into the country this time but you had better contact the consulate in Stockholm.
The consulate, in answer to my email, stated that I had lost my citizenship in 1977, though they didn’t know the details and that if I wished to travel to the states in the future I was obliged to obtain a nonimmigrant visa.
I applied for a nonimmigrant visa last week and was told by the NIV official that he couldn’t help me since I was an American citizen and that it would be illegal for me to enter the states on a visa.
I was sent over to the ACS people on the other side of the room and their opinion (after a short 3-person staff conference) was that I was a citizen as long as I had not formally renouncef U.S. citizenship before a consular officer. (which I have no memory of one way or another)
But how could it be that they would ask this question. Either I signed some document and I am not a citizen or I didn’t sign it and perhaps now I am a citizen. How come they don’t know this?
*No, all you did was sign documents which granted you Swedish citizenship from the Swedish authorities. None of that would have affected the US side of things unless Swedish law prohibited having a second nationality alongside the Swedish one. Unless you took Swedish citizenship with the intent to give up your American one, you are considered a dual national by the US.
You should contact the Swedish office/embassy where you took out your citizenship to see if they have any paperwork which you can use to prove your US citizenship status. As you can see from the comments here, just signing a piece of paper doesn’t work for the Americans. You have to make it clear that it was done with the intention of relinquishing and if that wasn’t the situation at the time, then you need to make an appointment at the US embassy to renounce.
I have an email from the embassy dated dec 11, 2011 that clearly states I am not an a US citizen and now at this same office I am, so something has changed somewhere.
Would anyone care to voice an opinion on what I might expect from the IRS ifit turns out I have always been a citizen, unknown to me. I have been filing 1040NRs for the last 15 years. Would I perhaps have to refile with 1040s? Would they ask for retroactive fbar’s and fatca’s?
*Why were you filing tax returns if you didn’t think you were Amercian?
Because I had US investments.
*Travis. You need to decide if you want to be a dual citizen or not. If you do not, then don’t file tax returns or FBARS because that would be an admission that you consider yourself to still be American.
*The 1040NR is different from a regular US tax return and is only filed by aliens. So the the fact you were filing 1040NR if you had a reason to do so(based on having certain types of income generating property and investments in the US) is in fact evidence in your FAVOR that you did not have intent to be a US Citizen.
At the moment they have me in limbo. They say I am a citizen and therefore cannot apply for a visa to visit the US. But if I am a citizen, I am a citizen who can’t visit the states because i don’t have a passport.
I have a lot of family in the US, so the right to visit is important to me. I could accept being a citizen even considering the administrative burden it would cause me, as it would considerably improve my freedom of movement. Visas are also a burden and limited in what they allow me to do.
And I am worried that if I somehow should flub the passport application process that this might affect my possibility of getting a visa.
Your right, Tim, inasmuch as I filed NR in the belief that I was not a citizen. But in truth I wanted to be a Swedish citizen and at the time (1977) that was sufficient cause for the consulate to tell me I was no longer an American citizen. Renunciation was not my intention.
I know that most of the people on this forum are expats really upset with American tax law development, and perhaps I might come to regret resuscitation of my “dormant” citizenship, but at the moment I am more concerned with being able to visit the states at will.
@Travis, The important thing is what you wanted when you became Swedish, and what you do after. If you are filing your taxes was because you have US source income, then that does not indicate an intention not to relinquish. You should make an appointment with a Consulate to clarify your status.
Personally, I’d think that it would be preferable not to be citizen, particularly with the draconian penalties for unfiled FBARs and 8938s and the inability to function, especially as a citizen of certain European countries (I don’t know about Sweden). This is trend that seems to be getting worse. But IF you want to keep your US citzenship, tell them that at the Consulate and obtain a US passport (in the future you could still renounce it). IF NOT, then tell them that when you became a Swede that your intention was to relinquish your citizenship and they will probably acknowledge your intention to relinquish at the time and issue you a back-dated CLN.
See:
Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can
When relinquishing, actions speak louder than words
Thanks, Petros. That seems like an appropriate plan of action. I am leaning towards doing a passport application tomorrow. Of course I have worries about this, among other things, how it is going to affect my two children who have never known that they were anything else than Swedish.
*Travis, first call the local banks and see if they will accept you as a customer if you are a “US person”. If you get a US passport, then your bank might close your account(s). Then, if you earn good money, you might get hit with heavy fines which could wipe out your savings, since you didn’t file. As for your children, then can decide when they are 18 if they still want to be US citizens if the US government considers them as being that. It all depends upon your situation.
@swisspinoy – The deciding-at-18 (or 21) thing disappeared a long time ago. Travis’s children either are or are not US citizens, from an American point of view, depending on how long he spent in the US prior to their birth. The fine print is here: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html
*A broken man on a Halifax pier, I was thinking more along the lines of citizenship not mattering much until one is around 18. Once the kids can vote, earn money, go to college, pay taxes, drive a car, live on their own, that’s when citizenship issues are more likely going to make a significant difference. Until then, it’s the parents who pay the bills.
The “kids” are both over 21!
For both them and myself there remains the question: What obligations does one have as a citizen if one doesn’t know one is a citizen and the government in question affirms that one is not a citizen.
Since I travelled to the states on numerous occasions using a visa or visa waiver up until November last year without complications and then during my last trip was called in to second screening and told that I most likely was a citizen I surmise that some sort of mass review process at State finally ticked off my particular instance and a change was made in my records.
Interesting to consider whether I have been a citizen all this time, despite what the US consulate told me in 1977, or, if I was not a citizen for 35 years right up to today’s date when my citizenship is being reinstated. In the latter case I would not have to do a lot of backlog reporting for the IRS, or so I would assume.
*@Travis
What did you do 35 years, which leads you to believe you ceased to be a US citizens.
The email you received form the consulate should be sufficient to apply for a backdated CLN.
If your children were born after the relinquinshing act, they are not US citizens, since you can not transmit a citizenship that you did not have, unless your partner was a US citizen when they were born.
@Patricia
Sweden did not allow dual citizenship until (I think) 2002, so by taking Swedish nationality it was understood that he had to give up the US one.
@Travis
I don’t really understand why you want to claim back your US nationality. You’re just going to open yourself to a ton of reporting requirements and risk your bank accounts in the future depending on how Swedish banks decide to respond to FATCA. I personally renounced specifically because I could not open certain bank accounts and had another one closed. I think on a deeper level there is also the question of what that means to retake the nationality that the Swedish government understood you to renounce to become Swedish, but that’s just me.
@All
I also want to announce that I got my CLN today! Absolutely elated, and the first thing that I am going to do is open a bank account 🙂
Patricia, I took out Swedish citizenship. At the time that was considered a relinquishing act.
Today it is not. And without me doing any more than enquire as to my status the State Dept is apparently nullifying what happened 35 years ago.