Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
kcnileg – Excellent point, inchoate in my previous musings.
I would like to see ALL the names listed, so the U.S. must assume its justifiable shame for driving its own citizens to renunciation.
You spark this further idea. A Brock Pledge:
If oppressive Circumstances lead me as an Individual to exercise my Fundamental Human Right to terminate United States Claims over myself as a “U.S. Person” wherever Resident, I hereby Pledge, out of Love of Freedom, to pursue having my own name listed on their virtual Wall, in token of the Shame that the Bastion of Exceptionalism engenders by attempting to distinguish itself peculiarly from every other Nation of the World, except for singular sibling Eritrea.
Some striving for 18th-century aura. Intentional multiple resonances in “wall.” usxcanada hereby subscribes to this Pledge.
@kcnileg, I have just gone through and read your previous comments, and I have to say I really appreciate your contributions. Thank you. I agree with you that the voices of those of us who do not appear on the name and shame list are being nullified by this misrepresentation.
If you felt anyone here rapped your knuckles, it’s regrettable. I looked back at your comments but could not find the incident to which you were referring.
@kcnileg: I agree wholeheartedly with your statement “there is strength in numbers, and limiting the listing of renunciants to
a select few is not in the best interest of the +6 million Americans
affected by FBAR, FATCA, The Expatriot Act, etc. It encourages those in
positions of power in the U.S. government to misrepresent the overall
negative impact of these new IRS reporting regulations. By only citing
the ‘covered’ renunciants, they are able to suggest that it is only the
big, bad, filthy rich tax dodgers who are running for cover.” Exactly, and they will, and they have.
And, re disappointment at not being included on the ‘name and shame’ list of renunciants. I’m with you – I would want my name to be published after obtaining a CLN – as a form of public record of my rejection of the US claim that it owns me and my descendants for life no matter what non-US country I actually live permanently in, have citizenship in, earn in and pay taxes to. And I don’t owe any US tax. And I pay taxes in full where I live and work – so I’m not evading US taxes and I’m not a ‘tax protester’ – I’m protesting the US demands that I and my non-US family submit to being shackled for life based on an event that took place without my consent decades ago. And I’m protesting having to pay expensive US tax specialists and submit reports annually to the US for the rest of my life. And I’m protesting the US treatment of US persons living abroad. Nor will I let the US say what I can do with my legally earned, post-tax and fully reported and registered savings in the country which is my permanent home. And I’m not going to let some ‘foreign’ government – the US, tell me and my non-US family what we can and cannot do in our non-US home, with our non-US assets, inside the borders of Canada, a sovereign nation.
Without any visible record and symbol of public protest, the US gets to conduct all of this in secret – hiding and supressing dissent and leaving no public record and trace of the effects of their maltreatment on those of us living outside the US.
Draft ‘dodgers’ and those who burnt their draft cards in public were very powerful symbols of dissent during the Vietnam war – even though the US government attempted to discredit them and downplay the numbers of those who left.
No-one pays 450. and files complex forms with the State Department and the IRS simply on a whim – if people are continuing to line up to do that, there is an extremely compelling reason. The numbers making appointments to renounce/relinquish at the US consulates and embassies show that people are continuing to make the considerable efforts needed to shed unwanted US status. That is why the efforts to compile numbers and experiences here at IBS have been and remain so important – they hearten those who have yet to shed the unwanted US status, they prove instructive for those who need to plan for better circumstances, and assist those who are deciding how/whether to proceed – as well as providing a permanent public record of those who the US will not acknowledge.
*@kcnileg, this is very interesting. The US embassy in Bern said that I could schedule an appointment within weeks to renounce if I need to do so in order to refinance my mortgage, given that most banks here no longer refinance mortgages for US person. Yet, from what you are saying, I could lose my home simply because the US refused to hand out a CLN immediately. Given that it is a federal crime in the US to deny a person a mortgage based on their national origin, wouldn’t such a situation carry weight for a legal lawsuit against the US government? Certainly US persons mustn’t be denied mortgages simply because the US delays handing out CLN’s! A one year delay sounds extremely criminal.
*Nice idea, swisspinoy, but they’d only wiggle out of it by saying that law only applies to banks in the US, and not foreign ones I suspect.
That is why getting your hands on a copy of the Oath/Affirmation that you sign at the Embassy is important. You can show that to the bank to prove that you have taken the required steps to renounce your citizenship and are just waiting for the final paperwork to come in. It’s not a guarantee that they’ll be happy, but shows you have done your best to dump an bullying government. Also important for you is how long the Embassy here is making people wait until they have their second interview where they swear and sign that Oath as there is usually several months’ gap I believe so you can reflect on the serious consequences of giving up the US.
Can anyone tell me which form the IRS considers is their 1040NR? They quote this in their instructions, but there’s no corresponding form in their list? The only reference I found that connected with one on the list was a mentionf of 1040NR/EZ? I’m trying to work out which form I/we should use for getting tax compliant. Why my British husband is expected to file is beyond me and I have no income myself. I do have signatory rights on our accounts, but that is for convenience as he is often away for weeks at a time and bills need to be paid. This whole thing is confusing and worrying me no end.
Medea;
Just a thought or two after reading your question,
I’m not an expert, but I think you might consider getting some qualified help with the return/s from the outset if you’re starting from scratch, deciding on which form applies? Also not clear why you’d have to include your husband on the return/s if he is British, and not a dual US citizen or US ‘taxable person’ too? Did you mean to file ‘married filing jointly’ for a specific reason rather than choosing to file ‘married filing separately’ ? That is apart from the signatory issue for the joint account reporting . And, it would be good to clarify with the US tax accountant what constitutes your ‘income’ for the purposes of the return. (Just an aside, if you think there might be legal issues, consulting with a US tax lawyer first would give you the opportunity to speak more frankly under attorney-client privilege).
Ahh, maybe someone else could advise, I’m not being very clear, sorry, it’s late.
@Media Fleecestealer, the basic non-resident form is 1040NR (instructions here). The 1040NR-EZ is the supposedly “easy” version.
And why your British husband is expected to file is beyond me too. It sounds wrong. He’d have to only if he has US source income that isn’t covered by the tax treaty, and most stuff is — share dividends, bank interest are all there. Does he have some other US income? Where are you getting this information from?
If your husband holds a green card then he’s got the same depressing filing requirements as you — full 1040 and all the junk that comes with it. If not then you have the choice of “married filing singly” or “married filing jointly”. The first leaves your husband no IRS entanglements. With the second you have to include all his income — sounds nuts doesn’t it? and it may not make sense for you, but it can help folk with a non-working spouse to get bigger US tax deductions.
*Medea Fleecestealer, GE Bank in Switzerland is a US bank and it refuses to provide banking services to Americans simply because they are Americans and as a result of US policy. In my view, it is clearly evident that the US government has become so heavily racist against the American people that it unconditionally refuses to take any action against its heavily criminal behavior.
I bet that the best and quickest way to renounce is to declare that one will renounce and to then travel to the US. At customs, one should then state: “I’m visiting the US to renounce US citizenship”. That should be enough to be immediately renounced and sent back to where one came from with a CLN in hand. The disadvantage with that, though, would be the cost of travel expenses.
@Watcher & badger, there seems to be problems over here in that some of the banks are considering anyone in a close relationship, i.e. marriage, as American too which is causing problems as regards keeping/getting your account/s, not to mention the strain on said marriages (divorces occurring over this have been rumoured). The forms themselves aren’t particularly clear as they’re designed for US citizens living in America anyway. I’d hoped to avoid involving a professional to sort all this stuff out, but it looks as if I may have to (sigh). My husband has absolutely no ties/obligations to US except that he married me.
@swisspinoy Then it sounds as if that would be a good case for sueing the bank in the US, if you can afford to try it. Successful outcome? Maybe, but it would certainly drag through the various courts for years and years – and have you got that much money to pursue it?
@swisspinoy, I think your suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but just in case… a better way to renounce quickly is to “consulate shop” for a US embassy with little or no renunciation wait time and where you can arrange to do the whole thing either in one visit or with just a day or two between, and travel there instead. There may still be the cost of a flight but you can vacation afterwards, perhaps in a country you’d never otherwise have thought of visiting.
@Medea Fleecestealer, by all means worth a shot, but my guess is that the bank will only consider a CLN as worthy proof of non-US-ness. They probably could take a — notarized or certified? — copy of the oath, but that’s too complex to be enshrined in typical bank policy. Maybe if you’re on good personal terms with the people in the bank themselves. By the way, there’s an argument to be made that your official date of renunciation is the first visit, not the second, but it may be difficult to pursue. And you probably have nothing at this point to show your bank. This whole two-visits thing appears to be just a massive annoyance to everyone, renunciants and consulate staff alike, for no visible benefit to anyone.
swisspinoy, my understanding is that one can only renounce outside of the US, except during times of war. Ha! Make it THAT easy– they would never do that.
Just TRAVEL expenses and the fee to renounce is going to (1st interview done already!) cost me just shy of $2,000. The consulate is far away and I have to catch buses, taxis, stay in hotels, etc.. If I can’t get my 2nd appointment on a day off, then it will cost me even MORE money.
Sending them my passport with a letter saying “I don’t want/need this anymore.. please cancel citizenship and passport” would be so much more convenient. 🙂
@Medea Fleecestealer, US tax forms are unclear, full stop. Even if you’re a lifelong US citizen and resident. It’s how they’re designed. Part of their DNA. A cynic might say that they constitute deliberate attempts at entrapment. Of course, I myself would never think that!
I’m still baffled by how it appears your husband has to grapple with 1040NR. I understand the Swiss bank’s reluctance to get entangled with the IRS extends to spouses — that must really suck. But a Swiss bank extending the taint of US personage doesn’t make your spouse a “US person” any more than he was (wasn’t) before.
If you post more details we can probably sort it out. There’s a lot of accumulated experience here. That’s going to take time, though. Some good professional advice would likely be quicker. Do shop around, though, if you go that route. There’s plenty of bad professional advice to be had in this area also. As you’ve observed, it’s a minefield.
@Swiss Pinoy, This was posted 31 July on the Consulate Report Directory thread:
I think I read elsewhere also (can’t remember where, though) that Bern is now doing renunciations in one visit. Perhaps you could see if the bank will accept the letter of attestation, and it does seem, from reports to Brock, that CLNs for Europe are arriving in about two months.
*Medea Fleecestealer , my spouse is what the US calls a “non-resident alien”. I file as head of household and make no mention of my spouse. I pay all the bills with my income and anything left over is donated to my spouse who’s account I have no access to. If the US government wants to tax my spouse, then they can offer my spouse citizenship, which would be rejected for reasons unrelated to taxation.
Maybe in your case you got a TIN for your spouse. I believe that if one taxes one’s spouse once, then they’ll always be taxed with no going back.
*Nope, no social security number for either of us and no IRS ITIN’s either. Only found out about those when reading one of the IRS’s instructions while trying to find out what a 1040NR form was supposed to be. I don’t want either of us dragged into this compliance crap, but if I have to do it to clear the records for renouncing then I will, but without involving the other half if I can.
My understanding is that to file as “head of household” you must have at least one dependent and a “non-resident alien” spouse does not qualify as a dependent. But always the IRS writes their rules from the perspective of being in the USA and that becomes incredibly confusing when living outside the USA. Then there is the added confusion of “being considered” as in sometimes you are considered “unmarried” even though you are married, a “resident” even though you are a non-resident and a “US person for tax purposes” even though you are not a US person.
This whole filing status thing has become a terrible muddle for us. Whether, when and how to go from “married filing jointly” to “married filing separately” is something my husband and I are grappling with right now. We haven’t got it solved yet and soon we will have to file a 1040 for 2011 (got an extension until mid October). One minute we think we have it figured out and the next we are not so sure. I desperately want to exit from the IRS system but we have always filed jointly. And to add to the problem I still haven’t heard back from USCIS re: the I-407 I sent them 3 months ago (still hoping my actual date of leaving will be certified). There are many deductions lost with “married filing separately’, including having to pay taxes on 85% of social security (not a factor yet for us but could be later). I’ll be watching here to see if I can get any clue as to which way to go and when and how. Sometimes my attitude is I’m out and if you don’t like it send in the drones, simply because I’m tired of stressing about it.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p501/ar02.html#en_US_2011_publink1000220775
*Em, I don’t declare my spouse as the dependent and my spouse doesn’t exist as far as US taxes are concerned. I had actually considered filing married in the past, but then I learned that banks were denying me services for being a US person, and that kind of changed things a lot.
@usxcanada & badger: Thank you both for sharing my frustration on this issue…misery loves company, and you clearly empathize with my position.
@Petros, I imagine that I am overly sensitive. I read the following remark just after I posted, and even though it was not aimed directly at me, I felt it applied to me, and perhaps I had erred in posting my position.
I agree it’d be interesting to know the full number of individuals renouncing. But, quit antagonizing them into expanding the named list. You’re working for Schumer, et al that want just that. Such a list shouldn’t even exist as it violates an individual’s privacy. I don’t want to be on it. We already *know* it doesn’t include all individuals because it only includes “covered expatriates.” How some around here don’t get that point yet is baffling. I’ve no doubt that there are errors of omission of covered expatriates on that list–this is a government agency after all. But the reality is that many or most names of people that we know personally who are “missing” from it are people who weren’t considered “covered expatriates” and thus we wouldn’t expect to be on the list anyway.
When I went back to see how paranoid I had been, I saw that there were quite a few postings that contested this position.
If there were a category beyond whale and minnow…amoeba, perhaps. I would surely fit in quite nicely there. The fact is that it has never been a question of paying taxes that motivated me to renounce my citizenship, rather it is the pressure to concentrate on money that I don’t have; mathematics that far exceed my humble capabilities; and, the unintelligible gobbldy-gook that the IRS uses as the lingua franca for their reporting forms that I don’t understand. Let’s face it, I am an old broad who likes to piddle around with her computer, read books and walk her dog. They just waited too late in the day to start rattling my cage.
@swisspinoy,
I am far from being an expert in the material, but it is clearly written on the bottom of the DS-4080 that the Embassy/Consulate gives you upon renunciation:
Note: A renunciation of United States nationality/citizenship is effective only upon approval by the U.S. Department of State but, when approved, the loss of nationality/citizenship occurs as of the date the above Oath/Affirmation was taken.
I think this means that you are in a state of limbo in the interim period between renunciation and actual issuance of the CLN. In my case, that period lasted 8 months. All your DS-4080 represents is an intention to renounce.
@ swisspinoy
“… my spouse doesn’t exist as far as US taxes are concerned”
I understand (I think) but it’s the darn convoluted terminology which blows my mind when trying to decipher IRSpeak. If I had an account in the USA for some reason (and I don’t), that to me would be a “foreign” account not my local chequing account here in Canada. It would be nice if the IRS would put together a true overseas filer information sheet which is written from the viewpoint of being “overseas”, which we are from their perspective but they are “overseas” to us. Instead they no longer even send out overseas filer packages which were written entirely in Amerocentric IRSpeak but were still somewhat useful even at that. They expect us to flop around the IRS website to find answers to our questions now. Strangely enough this was the type of comment I first arrived at Brock with and now I have come full circle it seems.
@Pacifica and others:
What do various Canadian embassy appointment waits look like now – ex. Toronto, Vancouver? Any idea?
A quick look at the Vancouver consulate website and it appears that they are now booking appointments for November. It is my understanding that the Vancouver consulate requires 2 appointments, not one like so many other consulates.
@Badger, It looks like Toronto has around 43 appointments available beginning 20 September. (Toronto’s been steady at about a 3 to 4 week delay for several months now). I asked by phone this Spring what to do and they said just book for “notarial and other services” on the “American Citizen Services” page. So I booked for the rather vague “notarial and other services,” showed up with my forms and documents, and they handled it very efficiently. Was in and out in about an hour. Everyone was very pleasant.
*Does anyone know how long it is taking to get issuance of a CLN after all paperwork submitted and all interviews (one or two) completed, at the Toronto Canada consulate?
Thanks for the info re wait times, @Pacifica and @Tiger.
*@badger
Montréal has appointments available every business day starting 30 August through the end of September
Requires 2 appointments 30 day apart.