Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
*geeez, I asked a Swiss bank about this and they stated that they will only begin the process of financing my mortgage once I have documented proof that I renounced. I would assume that with that they are expecting to see a CLN before they will have anything to do with me.
@Petros, I’m well aware that the CLN is the most important document I’m going to need, thanks to all the helpful info I’ve found here provided by your good self and others – you’ve been a godsend. Yes, I see your point and if it was just the US end to worry about I probably wouldn’t bother with the 8854 form, as I have no assets/income in the States and don’t plan on ever going back. But I fear I may need proof for the Swiss end of things that I have fulfilled my US tax obligations so filling in the form may help with that. That’s the only reason I’m considering filing it for.
@geeez No I don’t know. I only know that, so far, these banks are still willing to accept/maintain accounts of US or US/dual citizens. If you’re not a Swiss resident it’s unlikely you’ll be able to do this anyway. They are tightening up on foreign based account holders (they were the first to be thrown out by the smaller cantonal banks) and you may only be considered if you could put something like CHF250,000+ into an account on opening it. Even that’s no guarantee.
@swisspinoy You should, with any luck, get a copy of the Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of National of United States when you make your second visit to sign this document which the Consular official will also sign. If they don’t offer you one, ask for it. It might help speed things up with your bank as it is official proof that you have renounced, even though it’s not the final CLN.
@Watcher, My understanding of the Ex Patriot Act when I read the summaries is that the definition of the one is also the of the other: covered expatriate=specified expatriate. Also, if you do not fill out 8854, you become “covered” which means that you would also be “specified”. As you say, it hasn’t passed yet, but it is the direction.
@ Medea, well you probably should find out from your Swiss banks if the CLN is sufficient then. I know that for Canada that’s all anyone needs to avoid FATCA. But the Swiss in recent years have invented ways of giving away the farm.
@ MediaFleecestealer,
Re to avoid being a covered expatriate, I took a look at the 8854 instructions http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf . It looks to me that one doesn’t have to be 5 years tax compliant by the date of expatriation, but has to be 5 years tax compliant by the time of filing the 8854. Still a pain, but, as I read it, you could go ahead and renounce asap and have until next June to complete the forms.
Does anybody know if Canadian banks open accounts for non-residents, or maybe Americans with a CLN? Once I renounce, I don`t want to keep more than a few dollars in US accounts — because if I remember correctly the US Government seizes money if the account holder (a NON-US Citizen) dies and the balance is over a relatively small amount.
Amazingly, this is what got me started researching this topic last year. I wanted to move money out of America and learned that I can`t open an account anywhere outside of where I reside and where I was born.
@Petros, the penalty for form 8854 is $10k if you fail to file or if you file incorrect information. The visibility of the first to the US is about 100%, but of the second? Clearly minuscule, otherwise why would the IRS make you report it?
So for covered expats, particularly those who are not multi-billionaires, filing an… ahem… less than complete… 8854, to appear either uncovered or covered but with no exit tax liability, carries the same or lower risk and higher reward than defying it. Other avenues include “temporarily” giving your spouse your half of a house and other assets (preferably structured to avoid US gift taxes, but US gift tax returns are soooo easily forgotten!), or just going on a spending binge before renouncing.
Perverse incentives? Sure, but US tax law is full of that. My rule of thumb is that if I haven’t found the perverse incentive in a US tax law, I probably haven’t fully understood it!
@Swisspinoy: Let’s say that you acquire CH citizenship in the near future (or already have it) and then go to a bank in CH to open a new bank account, where you have not banked before. You will be asked to fill out a form to determine whether you are a US Person, which may look like this:
http://isaacbrocksociety.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/ubs-ch-acct-opening-form-p1.pdf
You will present your CH passport which lists your naturalized Heimatort and your current Wohnort; the CH passport does not indicate where you were born. They will then start with the five questions, asking if you are a US citizen and you would respond no. When they ask where you were born, you could reply, e.g., Canada, Ireland or possibly “not in the USA”. You could then tell them that you are not required to pay taxes in the US, etc., so that all five questions are answered no. You would then sign and have your bank account.
If you are starting a new banking relationship, there would be no reason for them to ask for a CLN, if you indicate no to the five questions, imho.
@Watcher, filing a 8854 that under reports income puts one in risk of perjury, which to my knowledge is a felony. I think chances are that you could get away with it, but it carries risk with it too. I settled on filing the form, but putting Fifth Amendment on certain lines. Then a tax lawyer came on to the forum and argued against this approach as risky. But hell, if the IRS is going to say I’m a criminal, at least I have the right to plead the 5th and there is not really much they can do about it, to my knowledge (unless the law articles that I read were full of it). There’s no damage to the US government in any case. I am not a tax evader –don’t owe anything never will.
@geeez
No idea about Canada, but it is possible to open an account as a non-resident at several UK banks (and some offer several currencies), but only if you are a non-US person. I once tried to open one with Barclays and they were ready to open one until they opened up my passport and saw the place of birth. This was in 2009…
*All, where can I find the form to file for a change of birth place? I want to be born in Schwyz, Schwyz, Schweiz. I should change my name too, to something like Willhelm, Ulrich, Wolfgang or Otto.
@Petros: filing a 8854 that under reports income puts one in risk of perjury…
Indeed. But just as one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter, so can one person’s perjury be another’s refusal to acquiesce to unconstitutional and extra-territorial extortion.
I’d like to get my place of birth changed on my Canadian passport too. It probably is just a question of getting Canadian parliament to pass a law. But then the US would just refuse passage to all Canadians, and the shoppers in Bellingham would be able to find parking spots. Two birds with one stone.
*When was that Don Pomodoro, because we have accounts with Barclays from when we lived in the UK and while we can keep those open they won’t allow us to change or open any others because while we both have British citizenship (I’m dual obviously), our main residence is abroad. As recently as last month I checked again as the accounts we have are very old and don’t pay much interest, but no luck. We’re not UK resident so can’t open or change the accounts.
Maybe it is different for non-UK nationals, but I suspect geeez you’d still need to open an account with a very large deposit; in UK probably £100,000+.
Swisspinoy…. form to change birthplace.. OMG, that’s my DREAM!! Whenever I’m eligible for a passport here, I’m just going to put Canada, since they lump us all together and refer to us as “North Americans”.
Don, good to know. Watcher, this is account form for a ING Expat account out of Belgium. They ask for “Country of Origin”. I guess that means birthplace.
https://promo.ing.be/expatcoupon/index.aspx?ID=pHmmiZGfzDSs8Rmlrd8BvzimQHeOqb%2BcH%2Bay3d&lang=EN&cp=CpXpOpenAccount&WT.ac=hp_expats_welcome_openacc
But I’m a little confused because they also have this for non-residents:
https://www.ing.be/en/expats/Pages/non-resident.aspx?WT.ac=HP_expats_goto_non-residents
medea – can’t change because not a resident? Strange. Many of the banks in the UK have their “offshore” variety, and I doubt that residency requirement exists. That said, any day they are going to put notices, “No US Persons”. I’m very sure…
hey Don, why don’t you give ING non-resident department a call to see what they say about US Persons 🙂
+32(0)2 464 66 65
@Medea Fleecestealer
I was admittedly in the same situation – Former UK resident who had a previous account but wanted to open a different one. I was told that it would definitely have been possible if I had not been a “US person”. Barclays Wealth handles all of the international banking services, so your best bet would be to search there. I don’t remember what the minimum deposit was but it wasn’t very high since I was a student at the time and it was possible for me.
@geeez
As far as I know, ING still accepts anyone for simple banking services – They just don’t offer anything else to US persons. Not in Belgium at the moment, but I can look into it when I get back.
It looks like to open this account though you either have to come to Brussels or go to a local branch near you. I’ve seen them in France and the Netherlands, but I’m not really sure what their international presence is so that might be a problem for some!
Sort of strange to see the “tax benefits” of Belgium outlined for expats though 🙂 Unfortunately no US person on this site reading that page could benefit from anything mentioned!
geeez – You should be able to have an account in Canada. If US residents can do that, why not you? See http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/2012-feb-12-chavez/ I was involved with a situation where a person ceased to be resident of Canada and still had an account. Consequences? I recollect standard automatic withholding of a reasonable percentage of pittance interest paid.
*Yes, I find it strange that Barclays hasn’t ever mentioned contacting their international banking side of things. But then they know the balances on our accounts and they probably aren’t high enough to merit “wealth” status.
Geeez, another thing to consider is how you’ll do any transfers from your foreign account as I believe most in the UK at least will only allow internet/e-banking by UK residents. You could probably send money to a UK account, but not get it out again easily, short of either writing them a letter with instructions or calling them.
Just checked Barclays Int and the min deposit/maintenance figure is £5,000 or equivalent and goes up from there.
*After performing the oath of renunciation at the consulate, when and how is the IRS informed of the renunciation act or are they only informed when the CLN is issued? As a renunciant, do we need to initiate anything to inform the IRS or do we simply file the 8854 and 1040/1040N when they are due?
*@CanadianExpat, When, how, or even if the IRS is contacted by the department of State I do not know. When you renounce you will sign form DS-4081, this form is available online. On this form it says that you understand that you need to contact the IRS.
@CanadaExpat: Attached is the link to the US Dept of State procedures called “7-1240 Interagency Coordination and Reporting Requirements” which are part of the overall “7-1200 Loss and Restoration of US Citizenship Procedures”. This may assist you with your question on the reporting by DOS to the IRS:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113465.pdf
http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/07fam/c22713.htm
Who becomes listed in the shame list of renunciants in the Federal Register? Is it only covered expatriates in the 877A sense or is it all (both covered expatriates and non-covered expatriates)? If only covered expatriates, how would the IRS know you are a covered expatriate if you have not filed the 8854 yet until the next year?
@virg, that’s why I’ve argued that it is supposed to be everyone not just covered expatriates. Also, we have reports of uncovered expatriates being in the list. So the answer of who gets in the list is really random. Who knows? I am convinced however that the numbers are probably about 5-10 higher than what they are reporting based on the very plausible information that Korea reported that over 2000 green cards and US citizens expatriated in 2011 for Korea alone, while the United States reported less than that number. The US is lying.
*A few weeks ago, I had my knuckles rapped when I expressed disappointment at not seeing my name on the latest ‘name & shame’ list. It appeared that this list should be reserved strictly for the whales. I persist in believing that there is strength in numbers, and limiting the listing of renunciants to a select few is not in the best interest of the +6 million Americans affected by FBAR, FATCA, The Expatriot Act, etc. It encourages those in positions of power in the U.S. government to misrepresent the overall negative impact of these new IRS reporting regulations. By only citing the ‘covered’ renunciants, they are able to suggest that it is only the big, bad, filthy rich tax dodgers who are running for cover. The rest of us, working or retired Americans, who happen to live abroad with American or non-US person spouses, paying taxes in our respective countries of residence, while trying to be tax compliant with the U.S., are classified as de facto tax cheats and are harassed to prove that such is not the case, do not count. It is not because I like to see my name bandied about that I wanted to see it on the name and shame list, but because I would, at least, like to be counted, even if I am not a big fish. I think the U.S. should have the courage to name each and every American citizen it has driven from its ranks, rich or poor.
I have just received confirmation from the American Consulate in Marseille that my CLN has been issued, and will soon be arriving in the mail. It has taken nearly a year since my initial inquiries; eight months since I made my declaration of renunciation at the consulate. I understand that the waiting list at the embassies and consulates are getting longer and longer, and those who started the process after I did may need to wait a year or more to receive their CLN. I would like to see ALL the names listed, so the U.S. must assume its justifiable shame for driving its own citizens to renunciation.