Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@ ex-american
Just for benefit of the group… if you met with a consulate in April 2012 and got a CLN in 3 months, which consulate did you go to… some CDN consulates say it take 6+months to get a CLN, e.g., Calgary?
*Thanks for that Petros. Having a look at both the Swiss and UK passport/citizenship sites it seems that you can only give an oath of alligence through the UK end of things and not at Bern, although admittedly I haven’t checked with Bern Embassy to see if it would be possible to set up a specific appointment to do that, but in general they don’t do oath ceremonies here. Makes sense I guess as there are unlikely to be many people wanting to take the UK oath whilst based in Switzerland. Given the time and hassle of trying to arrange to take the oath in UK, I think renunciation here in Switzerland will be just as quick.
Unfortunately, my husband finds the whole idea that Americans can be taxed worldwide so crazy that he is offering little support or advice to help me decide on a course of action. However, given that the Swiss banks are so alert to Americans having accounts with them and my bank does know I have a US passport I feel I have no option other than to renounce; the possibility of laying low and being ignored by the IRS is nil given the bank situation. I have never filed any US tax returns and as soon as my bank finds out that I/we are non-compliant I fear the accounts will be closed and we will be left high and dry.
@newb. I went to the Halifax consulate. They told me it would “take over a year”, but it was only 3 months before I got my CLN.
@ex_american,
Congratulations on your relinquishment. Could we add your information to our Relinquish and Renounce database (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/)?
If so, could I get the date of your first contact with the Halifax Consulate and the date of your appointment? I would hope that the fact you got a CLN dated the same as your receipt of Canadian citizenship, that then says you were not a US citizen from that date and would not have responsibility for tax returns after that date.
Great news that it took only three months to receive your CLN from the Halifax Consulate!
@hijacked2012,
I sent an email the same day as your comment, August 1, and have an appointment for November 14 for my husband and myself. My daughter sent an email request a week earlier and got an Calgary Consulate appointment in October. By the looks of yours, my daughter’s and now my husband’s and mine, I’d say there seem to be more requests for appointments now happening in Calgary.
Also, hijacked, can I enter your information in the Renounce and Relinquish database (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/). If so, what was your first contact with the Calgary Consulate? July or August 2012?
*@Calgary411
First e-mail to consulate was July 16. This was through a lawyer (why? long story). He did not get a reply from them until Aug. 1 and was apparently told that they were booking into Dec. I still don’t have a definite date and am very very frustrated with the whole process. Feel free to enter this information, such as it is, into the consulate directory report. It’s a potential relinquishment by the way.
Thanks, hijacked.
I will add your info to the database for Calgary. I really hope yours will be a relinquishment, with a resultant CLN soon after!!! (Mine would have been a potential relinquishment too but, if you’ve read my story, you will know all the mistakes I made, putting myself back into the US after thinking I was over and out since my Canadian citizenship oath in 1975. One of the reasons I’m here is to advise others coming to Canada in similar times as I did not to do as I did.)
*On the DS-4079 and in support of a renunciation application or during the interview process at the Vancouver U.S. consulate, is it acceptable to list as one of the reasons for renunciation the burdening excessive time preparation and high cost (between $750-$1500/year typically) of required professional assistance in filing yearly highly-complex IRS tax forms and tax returns for overseas Americans, even when there has been no U.S. tax due (=0.00) for many years while living and working overseas .. or would this be considered or construed as renouncing for an improper reason because it is tax related (even though there is 0.00 U.S. tax due)?
You are not obliged to give any reason for renouncing, and there is no advantage in doing so. Also, you would be very unwise to say, much less write, anything that allows your renunciation to be interpreted as tax-related.
@CanadaExpat,
No, your reason may be the same as mine. In my heart I am ONLY a Canadian. Thought I had been from the time I took my Canadian Oath of Citizenship in 1975.
@ABMoaHP: Also, you would be very unwise to say, much less write, anything that allows your renunciation to be interpreted as tax-related.
I imagine that precisely nobody writes “tax” as their reason for renunciation. I also imagine that some poor soul in the state dept gets to collate all these “reasons” — surely this data is collected for a purpose? — and present them in a report. And that congress eventually reads the report and concludes that citizenship-based taxation can’t be all that bad because, well, nobody ever renounces because of it!
@Watcher: Feel free to file a FOIA for this document, if you believe it exists.
@Watcher, you’re absolutely correct.
What a catch 22 to not be able to say “It’s the administrative costs of US tax and FBAR reporting, the stress, the absurdity year after year for little or $0.00 owed to the US, NOT THE TAX itself,” to give the DOS its ammunition to say “well, nobody ever renounces because of tax”.
*”or would this be considered or construed as renouncing for an improper reason because it is tax related”
The point is, you have a right to renounce, and don’t have to seek anyone’s approval, or explain yourself. The only reasons you can be turned down have to do with the consular officer deciding that you don’t understand the act, or you’re being coerced.
The State Department’s manual says:
*@calgary411: I’m wary of punitive laws in the future targeting people who are defined as having expatriated for tax reasons, and I don’t trust the powers that be to distinguish clearly between renouncing to avoid actual taxes and renouncing to avoid the administrative burdens connected to taxation.
@broken man on a Halifax pier,
Yes, we must be wary. Laws seem to be easily changed to suit the occasion. Nothing said is best although it skewes any sane reasoning. A statement isn’t required as you’ve quoted from the DOS manual.
People on this threat have discussed what to reasons to “write” in the renunciation process. I have completed Forms 4079, 4080, and 4081 in preparation for my interview in Halifax next week. No where do I see a request for “reasons” to be stated. Am I missing something?
@Candide, When I explained my reasons, I mentioned it in a separate sworn statement.
*It’s the actual Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship form. It would like lots of explanations from you, depending on how you’re renouncing and why. Go to http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025 to see the form and print it off if you want. There’s nothing to stop you filling it in before you go to the Embassy for your first interview.
The I-407 Abandonment of Lawful Permanent Resident Status for green-card holders asks much more pointedly:
What USCIS does with this information is an open question.
@all – DS4079 can be found here. The form is a tool designed to help decide, on the balance of probabilities, whether someone has relinquished or not. It’s also given to renunciants to fill out (I have no idea why.)
Renunciants could probably get away with refusing, but I wasn’t motivated to get into that discussion. It’s possible they’re using the renunciants’ 4079s to do some demographic analysis of who is renouncing (breakdown of the other citizenships, how many years renunciants have lived outside the US and so on. )
@Candide – You’re not missing anything – see above. Petros chose to make a statement, but you don’t have to. Renunciation isn’t something you have to justify to the consular officer – it’s a right you’re exercising. Once again –
@ Watcher
I have no idea either what the USCIS does with the information on the I-407 form — probably sends a copy to DHS though. I just want them to get the darn thing back to me with their “stamp of approval”. I recently sent another inquiry letter — this time to the US Consulate in Calgary. Not a peep from anyone after 3 months — darn annoying. Truthfully I don’t even know what I’m going to do with the I-407 form if they ever get it back to me. I just want to have it in case someone wants proof that I am not and, in my opinion, have not been a green carder since I returned to Canada over 15 years ago. If I had known then what I know now, I would have had an I-407 tucked away in a drawer all this time instead of that darn green card. Sorry for darning so much.
@ Canadide, broken man; Please note that I was following the guidelines form the State Department on how to inform the Consulate of your relinquishment:
I gave a statement to make it clear what my intention was in a manner which was more clear than what their own forms would indicate. To establish intent, I felt it was necessary to explain my reasons for wanting to lose my US citizenship. It wasn’t enough, in my mind, to say, yeah, I took this oath to the Queen when became a Canadian. I wanted to show them why I didn’t want US citizenship at all. In that sense, if the reasons are legitimate, it can help the relinquishment process.
It’s up to you – I’ve explained the reasoning behind the name-rank-and-serial-number approach, which is one of the possible approaches, above. There will be those who feel strongly about making a statement, and they should feel free to do so.
OTOH all you should need for a relinquishment is to say 1) I’ve committed an expatriating act 2) I intended it to be expatriating 3) I’ve done nothing since that date that asserts US citizenship 4) I’d like a CLN.
@ broken man, this conversation should really help Candide. I would add that your approach is safer in the sense that making a freehand statement like mine is risky, because you may say something that can be used against you. Never mention taxes, for example, in such a statement. But now, I am a little bit more paranoid too. Recently I’ve been depicted as someone who wishes ill of the United States; a simple, “I want to relinquish”, is probably, in the current poisoned environment, the safest bet. Remember when I made that statement, I was Peter Dunn, private citizen of Canada. Now I am Petros, notorious Canadian tax protestor, the Irwin Schiff of the North.