Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Many thanks to those who responded to my query about procedures at the Toronto consulate.
@cba: I don’t believe getting a Canadian passport is considered an exapatriating act by the US. Therefore, it would not likely be accepted as grounds for relinquishing. You may need to renounce instead. That may require you to be compliant for five years with IRS–although True North was not compliant and has no intention of filing returns.
Did you ever work for a federal or provincial government and sign an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen when you began work? If so, you could try to get a certified copy of that Oath and take it to the Consulate to see if that would be accepted as grounds to relinquish. If you signed that Oath voluntarily with the intent to relinquish, it is possible it would be accepted.
Remember, Canada Revenue Agency will not collect any tax liability for IRS on a Canadian citizen. IRS also has no jurisdiction in Canadian courts. Your best protection from IRS is Canadian citizenship.
In terms of FATCA, we are still making the case to Canadian government and to Canadian Bankers Association (another CBA!) that requesting information on place of birth is a violation of Canadian laws. To date, the government has not indicated they will change the law to accommodate a foreign government.
I personally would not rush to a US Consulate at this point to renounce, especially if you have no need to travel to US. Others feel differently and have or will renounce as soon as they can get an appointment. You need to do whatever will give you the greatest peace of mind.
*@cba, I’m not sure of the exact dates, but people that were dual citizens that did not return to live in the US by around 22 to 25 years of age lost US citizenship. By remaining in Canada you may have lost US citizenship. That part of the law has been repealed, but if you are old enough, you may have lost your US citizenship before the repeal. I had a copy of the 1952 act as well as the dates when various parts changed, but can’t seem to find it now.
@True North: CBA was born in 1953. Is that of any help? Thanks for that information.
@CBA: In addition to what True North and I have said, it’s posted, it’s important that you know that Steven Mopsick, a US tax attorney who worked for IRS for 30 years, thinks it is unlikely IRS will be interested in pursing someone like you.
Whatever you decide to do, Don’t Panic (easier said than done, I know!)
*@cba, Section 350 of the INA was repealed Oct. 10 1978. Prior to that a person that at the time of birth was both a US citizen and a citizen of another country could lose US citizenship by having 3 years of continuous residence for three years after 22 year of age in that other country.
@True North: Very interesting. My calculations indicate CBA turned 25 in 1978. Does this mean CBA may have just squeaked in under the three years if continuous residence was in Canada between 1975 (year of turning 22) and 1978 (year of turning 25 and year of repeal of the INA). A lot may depend on what month CBA was born. Correct?
I hope this works to CBA’s advantage.
*@Blaze and @cba, It’s one more possible path to loss of citizenship. What will the department of state say today? The view now seems to be cba was born on US soil and is a citizen period.
*@True North and @ Blaze, I appreciate the information. This helps me make my decision what to do. I will not renounce. Unless I can easly relinquish the US is not going to see me ever again. Thanks again cba
*Don’t know where to post this. For those Brockers worried about crossing south with a Canadian passport and US birth place; Crossed today from Quebec to Vermont. Conversation with border guy went EXACTly as follows. Hello-Good afternoon. Where ‘ya going-to the beach in Maine. Are you bringing anything , food. -no. More than $10,000? – no. Ever been arrested? (laughing). No. ( also laughing). Have a good holiday.
No where do you live? Hoy long are you going for? NADA. Don’t panic about this yet
@Queen of Surrey
I agree that most border crossings have gone very well and will probably continue to do so especially in more rural areas. However, A friend of mine was stopped entering Puerto Rico with a Canadian passport and US birthplace and told he should be traveling on a US passport. He managed to convince the border official that he did have a CLN (just not with him) and they did finally let him in. I have been told on three occasions at the border with Maine that I am a US citizen but I have been let in.
Border officials apparently have great leeway and it would only take one miserable one to ruin a trip. With wait times of six months or more it may not pay to wait. Panic you should not but complacency may not be the best policy either.
I suspect that airports may be stricter than land crossings right now.
@Blaze, just to let you know – you were so right. I now have a copy (not certified) of the oath of allegiance to the Queen and the government of Canada that I signed in 1984, for my job with the Health & Welfare. Thanks so much for the suggestion. I have to say that Health Canada was very quick and responsive on this – I was quite impressed with them.
*For everyone’s information – can’t get an appointment at the Calgary consulate until December!
Thanks, hijacked2012. Based on your sage advice, I’ve just re-booked renunciation appointments for myself and my husband and hope we can get appointments before the end of the year and that we will be prepared for them.
I’m American by birth (near the end of the baby boom, in the States to US parents) and lived in the States until a few years ago. I met a most delightful Canadian in 2005. We married in early 2006 and began my PR paperwork that year. I moved to up here in July 2007 then earned my PR in November of that year. I applied for citizenship in December 2010 (about four days after becoming eligible) and became a Canadian citizen on November 30 2011. I gave my citizenship oath with the full belief that this is my home and that I expect to life the rest of my life here.
A little off topic, but my first job in Canada involved working under PR status for a well-known not-for-profit organization. Then I went to college (paying all costs out of pocket) to earn a diploma in my field. My next job (still as a PR) was contract work for a Crown corporation; unfortunately I was never administered an oath. My current position is with a privately owned company at a location almost within spitting distance of the US border – Oh the irony.
I dragged my feet about applying for my Canadian passport.
My mom died in the States in January of this year; the memorial was scheduled for three days later. It was impossible to fit getting a Canadian passport into the available time. Well, I had to go because she was my mom – which meant travelling on my US passport. Within days of returning home I applied for (and have since received) my Canadian passport.
Since mom’s passing I have learned about FuBAR, FATCAt and all of the rest, have some catching up to do, and will post about the financial reporting issues in the FBAR and FATCA questions thread. For now it suffices to say that we certainly are not whales, probably not even minnows. We are more like krill. It further suffices to say that, as krill, the notion of spending up to 50 hours every year for the rest of my life fulfilling reporting requirements is very, very unattractive. Remember, too, that we fully expect to live out our lives here.
My siblings (all of whom are older) live in the States as do some friends and we would like to visit them, so never going to the States again is not an attractive option. I am well aware that any advice/suggestions offered by anyone here isn’t legal advice and I won’t rely on it as such.
My options are to retain my US citizenship, relinquish, or renounce. As mentioned earlier, the reporting requirements make retaining unattractive. It could be that relinquishment isn’t a very good option because I have travelled to the States since acquiring my Canadian citizenship I’m guessing that I will have to renounce.
Your thoughts? Thank you in advance.
Hi Extex,
If you acquired Canadian citizenship with the intention of relinquishing yourUS citizenship, it’s possible that Dept of State might determine you relinquished in spite of having used your US passport because determination is made on the balance of probabilities. According to the DOS procedure manual,
I think it’s dicey, but if you believed you were relinquishing in November 2011, I think two things might work together to mitigate your use of the passport working against you. You had to use a passport quite shortly after getting your Canadian citizenship, and it was an emergency situation, not like you were going on vacation or even business. I’m really not sure how they’d look at it because using a country’s passport is a pretty serious thing.
At any rate, from a practical point of view there is not much difference between if you relinquished or renounce, except that renunciation has a $450 fee and most consulates require 2 visits for renunciation but 1 for relinquishment. The forms are basically the same for both procedures. Info about forms on page 3 Consulate Report Directory.
On the other hand, renunciation would be certain. With relinquishment, I’m pretty sure that Wash DC, who issues the CLN, will go along with the Consular official’s evaluation
of your (or anyone’s) CLN application, but DC does do the final approval. The consular official makes a finding which is part of one’s file that is sent to DC, and, to my knowledge anyway, DC rarely overrides. But I can’t be certain, it’s a bit mysterious to me.
I have been told by consulate staff that if they don’t believe a person they’re meeting with actually did relinquish, they will allow them to renounce instead at that same meeting; and that did, in fact, happen to one Brocker.
Whether you relinquish or renounce, you would still have to fill out the exit tax form 8854 and be in tax compliance for the previous 5 years, according toUS law (though you do this by June 15 of the year after you apply for your CLN). If you’d relinquished prior to 1995, it’s possible this would not apply, but after 1995 it definitely does.
*As soon as you have 5 consecutive yrs. of 1040s, renounce. Should be straightforward. File FBARs going forward if you have to . Avoid ‘voluntary disclosure programs -they are a trap. The new program for Canadian krill may be doable. Details not yet final.
You can renounce before being tax-compliant. If you renounce this year, you don’t need to certify that you’ve done the past 5 years of 1040s until 15 June 2013.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol_Adulyadej#Early_life
Has anyone seen the King of Thailand in the Federal Register of renounced citizens?
If not, do you think he has signature authority to sign for the Kingdom’s monthly bills?
@ pacifica777, thanks for your comments. I have pondered relinquishment versus renunciation including the possibility that DOS would consider my actions as a ‘preponderance of evidence’ that am giving up my citizenship. Throw in the facts that a) I have publicly stated many many times that I intended to apply for Canadian citizenship, then b) did so within days of becoming eligible and there is a persuasive case that I intended to and did relinquish. And yet . . .
It isn’t a sure thing, as clean and clear a declaration of intent as renunciation would be. I have extensively researched here on IBS, on renunciationguide.com, Phil Hodgen’s blog, and other sources what’s involved with both courses of action. I’ve discussed it with many people, some I deeply trust and some whose thoughts otherwise mattered. All of my research and discussion seems to keep suggesting the same course of action.
Hello,
I am new to the IBS, but I have found a lot of valuable information from reading discussions over the last few months. I was born in the US and moved to Canada as a minor in the 1970s. I became a naturalized Canadian citizen in the early 1980s with the intention to relinquish my US citizenship. In April 2012, I met with US consulate officials and filled out the paperwork requesting their recognition of my relinquishment. I recently received a CLN backdated to the date of my Canadian citizenship naturalization (it took about 3 months to receive the CLN from when I met with them).
I am now trying to figure out what I should do with respect to the IRS. I have never filed US taxes because I did not believe I was a US Citizen. I have read with interest all of the discussion on this website regarding Form 8854, and whether someone in my situation is required to fill this out or not.
My question is: Has anyone tried asking the IRS directly in writing whether someone who has expatriated prior to 1986, but not informed the State Department until 2012, is required to fill out form 8854?
Thanks!
*Your best bet is probably to sit back and do nothing at this point. I believe some people have tried contact the IRS but have never gotten a clear answer.
Medea Fleecestealer wrote: “Found it. Petros, was that a video of the ceremony or just a vid of you making some sort of declaration as further proof?” Sorry never responded to this. I made a video of my citizenship ceremony, plus statements on it to the effect that I was relinquishing my US citizenship and one of me talking to the citizenship judge say that I had also relinquished my US citizenship (she said that was the first time she’d heard that). But I never had to use it, since the US consulate accepted my statements of renunciation and I am in possession of a CLN.
@ex-american, one of the tax lawyers who sometimes comments said that he received an informal opinion. You can read it here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/comment-page-1/#comment-24498
@Petros, @ Tim. Thanks for your replies. I have read that post before by Michael J. Miller, and I did find it encouraging. What I was wondering if anyone had written to the IRS and asked for a written reply. I understand it is possible to obtain a Private Letter Ruling, but I don’t know much about it. Perhaps someone has already done this and it has been published ??
@ex-american, I’ve never heard anything like that yet. Would be curious too.