Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
I was born in California in 1960, where my father was in university. I’ve lived in Canada since 1962. I’ve never considered myself an American citizen, have always traveled on a Canadian passport, have never owned property or worked in the US. I have a Canadian certificate of birth abroad.
In 1984, when renewing my Canadian passport, my Canadian citizenship was challenged because my father was born overseas to Canadian parents (rules around Canadian citizenship at were strange – I recall that to be a citizen he had to be in Canada at the time of his 18th birthday or some such thing). Canadian citizenship and immigration confirmed that I was a Canadian, and I received a Canadian citizenship certificate. When I received this certificate, I believed that it meant that I would not be able to claim American citizenship (not a big deal to me, as I’d always considered myself a Canadian).
I would like any advice as to how to proceed. I would like to relinquish my citizenship if possible, and revoke if necessary. I find the need to do this invasive and offensive, as I don’t consider my self an American, and have always paid my taxes in Canada.
Thanks for any help/pointers.
*jethro As far as I can tell you have 3 options. A) Do absolutely nothing. That is what most would do. If a border guy says you are American, answer politely ‘That’s very kind of you. I was brought home to Canada as an infant and never knew I could be American. I’ll certainly look into it when I get home”
B) 1 Renounce at a consulate. You are then subject to the exit tax regime. As a dual at birth, you are not subject to the net worth test but you do have to certify that “under penalty of perjury” WTF that means, you are tax compliant with the IRS for the previous 5 years. This clearly involves a lot of study, time and accountant’s fees.
B) 11 Renounce at a consulate. Ignore the rest.
Start at http://renunciationguide.com/ Don’t rush. Don’t panic. Don’t give an inch to the buggers.
*Jethro. P.S. Please tell your story to your MP and to your NDP provincial rep. The NDP seem to be more concerned than the other 2 federal parties.
Cornwalliscal, thanks for these replies. I’m leading towards renouncing without filing, because it fits with what I believe is the correct course of action. The website link is very good.
*You could probably relinquish with a CLN backdated to 1984, which would get you off the hook for tax returns.
The problem with Cornwalliscal’s option (A) is that it may be hard to do repeated times, since the border patrol officer will make a note in the database that you’ve been warned to travel on a US passport.
Actually, the whole issue of border patrol warnings and the related data trail is an important subject for USCs abroad. I think the long-term game plan with telling USCs with foreign addresses that they should be filing tax returns, and making a note in the database that the warning was issued, is to make it harder to write reasonable-cause letters in the future.
*Agreed with Broken Man on Cornwall situation…border cops will take notes that you have been warned to travel on a U.S. passport when the question comes up but I am not speaking from personal experience. I thought of playing the situation like you Cornwall, playing “naive” but realised the “simplist” way is to get a CLN and never have to worry about these problems again. Just think, a CLN will pay for itself over time…the value of 1 CLN is worth 3 passport fees (and passport fees will only go up over the next 30 years, guaranteed). I have never been asked about filing my taxes at the border, but that certainly will change. I am sure one day they will know you tax status and have some tax records at their fingertips. It may seem unlikely, but if they can shroud everything as being required for national security, they will have access to anything they want to know… even your pet’s name.
I knows the subject has been mentioned before, but would someone mind going over the implications of renouncing without filing any tax returns of FBARs for a non dual citizen at birth.
As I understand the rules,, that person would be a covered ex patriot. However, the first $636,000 of deemed gains would be exempt. I also understand that gifts and bequests over $13,000 to a USP would be subject to tax. Also, various deferred compensation plans would be considered to have been cashed in on the date of expatriation.
Assuming a person had less than $636,000 in deemed gains, was not going to be making any gifts or bequests to a USP and had no deferred compensation plans, wouldn’t it just be easier to renounce (if relinquishment was not a choice) and not bother with filing returns.Especially if a person had nasty things like Canadian mutual funds, ETF’s and TFSA.
Would RRSP’s figure into this at all into this at all, assuming there were no deemed gains on the RRSP.
@A broken man
I don’t think he would be able to relinquish. He did not commit a expatriating act. Canadian Immigration confirmed that he was a Canadian so there would have been no naturalization or oath of allegiance to Canada.
If his certificate gives his birth date as the date he acquired citizenship then he is a natural born Canadian and he would not be able to relinquish. On the plus side he would not be required to pay the exit tax.
In theory the US can fine you a $100 “administrative fee” if you try to cross the border without a US passport. Currently I don’t think they are collecting it but I expect that they will in the future and use the information provided to start the IRS shakedown process.
*@hazy2 – I call this the Out in a Blaze of Glory strategy – the advantage is that you file an 8938 as your only piece of US tax paperwork, for a resulting saving in life credit units.
There are a couple of liabilities. One is that the IRS may demand back returns, FBARs and so forth, with escalating penalties, and you may have to figure out what to do about that. Another is that from the point of view of the person whose job it is to choose audit targets, your paperwork would really stand out. Another is that if the Reed Amendment ever starts being enforced, it will probably target covered expatriates, who will be deemed to have renounced for tax reasons. So there’s the chance of being barred from the United States.
So. Maybe you’re happy to never cross the border again. That’s fine, but it raises the issue of why you’re bothering to renounce in the first place, rather than just ignoring the issue. The full ostrich is a perfectly appropriate position for a lot of people, and you may be one of them.
*@Jethro I am in a similar situation. The only way that you can relinquish is if you worked for the military or the government. I have been writing to politicians as I feel that it is important to allow us to easily relinquish our questionable US status. I recommend that you do the same. Many voices may get their attention. I am hopeful that my MP will be helpful.
@ A broken man
Thanks. I was actually asking for someone else. Personally, I’m definitely in the relinquishment sphere, but am taking the Blaze approach for now.
@Dianne, You know, I keep coming across that idea – if you worked for the fed govt you can relinquish. I worked for Health & Welfare Canada (as it was then) in the mid-80’s. I don’t remember having to take an oath or anything? Also, I thought that it had to be a high level position where the person was actually making policy decisions?
Do you have anything that would negate what I thought? It would be extremely beneficial if you did, as I became a Canadian at 16 and so think the US won’t recognize the relinquishment I thought I was making. If working for the feds fixes things, I would be over the moon!
@Outraged: It is very likely you signed an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen when you first began work for the federal governement. It would at least be worth contacting Human Resources there to see if you could get a certified copy of it.
Then, you could take that, along with your original citizenship (when you were a minor, which you think could be the glitch for you) certificate to the Consulate.
You could honestly tell them that when you became a Canadian citizen, you fully understood you were voluntarily relinquishing your US citizenship. You could also give them the copy of the Oath. They will likely ask if you signed that with the intent of relinquishing US citizenship. I’m not sure what they would say to that because you believed at the time you had already done that.
The dilemma, of course, will be if they refuse to accept your initial relinquishment because you were a minor and if they refuse to accept the oath, you have put yourself on their radar. As I think you know, I personally will not go anywhere near a US Consulate, but everyone needs to make the decision which gives them the most peace of mind.
@Blaze, thanks. I will try that, it’s worth a shot. I’m not intending to go anywhere near a US consulate unless it proves absolutely necessary in order to keep living my life – if my bank refuses my mortgage, for example. However, I would like to have all my ducks in a row if worse comes to worst.
@Outraged: I truly don’t think worse will come to worst. Maura Drew Lytle either wouldn’t or couldn’t give us any legal authority for the right of Canadian banks to demand information about place of birth or legal authority for closing our accounts for refusal to provide that information.
To me, that seems indicate there is, in fact, no legal authority for doing so in Canada. To date, the government has not shown any indication they will change the law to give that legal authority. If the government does do that, we may have a case for a Charter Challenge against the government.
*@Just a Canadian
“If his certificate gives his birth date as the date he acquired citizenship then he is a natural born Canadian and he would not be able to relinquish”
I have a similar situation to Jethro in that I may (or may not) be dual due to complicated circumstances. However I did apply for Canadian citizenship many years ago and my certificate is dated 1967, not my date of birth. I don’t have a clear recollection of what exactly transpired when I applied as it was so long ago. Given the date, is it the opinion of others that I was indeed naturalized and not considered to be born Canadian and would thus be able to relinquish? I have applied for my citizenship file but it’s taking forever. There are probably masses of people looking for ancient information.
@Hijacked: I think it would depend on how you applied. If you applied as the child of a Canadian citizen, then you would not be able to relinquish.
If, however, you applied to become a Canadian citizen and you swore an Oath of Allegiance to Canada and to the Queen, then you would be able to relinquish if you did so with the voluntary intent of relinquishing citizenship at the time.
Do you remember if you had a citizenship ceremony? Was this as an adult or as a minor? If you had a ceremony, you would have sworn an oath both in writing and verbally.
You may be able to get information from your citizenship file through CIC Freedom of Information. The fee is the grand sum of $5.00. It was the best $5.00 I ever spent!
If you submit a FOI request, be sure to ask for a copy of your application and a copy of the oath you took. If you actually became a citizen through an oath in 1967, that oath would included a statement renouncing any present or former citizenship. After 1973, renunciation was not required to become a Canadian citizen.
The documents are stored on microfiche, so they’re a bit hard to read, but they can be deciphered.
*@Blaze
I was an adult. I didn’t have a citizenship ceremony in the sense that others were acquiring citizenship at the same time but I did have to present in person and not just apply by mail. I think there was an oath, but as I said, it was so long ago that it may at this point be wishful thinking. Just have to wait and see how long it takes to get the file I guess. Did you have a long wait?
@Hijacked: I don’t think it was very long. Maybe five or six weeks.
@Hijacked
You mentioned a complicated situation that you are having problems recalling. It could be that you gained Canadian citizenship is by way of grant.
It applies for people who should/could have received citizenship at birth but didn’t.
The example I am thinking of involves someone born in wedlock in the US to a Canadian mother and a non Canadian father. Under the 1947 citizenship act that person was not a Canadian at all. They could apply for citizenship and were granted citizenship under an simplified scheme but they are not naturalized and not natural born. Unfortunately such a person would not have taken the oath and be able to renounce nor are they considered natural born and so are not eligible for the exit tax exemption.
The 2009 amendments might have retroactively granted natural born status to such a person.
*If you applied for and accepted a grant of citizenship under this kind of system IMHO it could be an expatriating act. “Oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state” covers a lot of territory.
Assuming you haven’t done anything American in the meantime.
*@outraged Even if you hold a non-policy position at a foreign government it is an expatriating act if you did so wanting to relinquish your US citizenship. I am sure that you can find a copy of the Oath of Allegiance online. It is my understanding that this oath is normally used when you start a position with the federal government.
Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Dual Nationality
The Department of State is responsible for determining the citizenship status of a person located outside the United States or in connection with the application for a U.S. passport while in the United States.
POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING ACTS
Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certainspecified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:
ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE
In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:
and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed.
When, as the result of an individual’s inquiry or an individual’s application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it wasnot the person’s intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship.
PERSONS WHO WISH TO RELINQUISH U.S. CITIZENSHIP
If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish citizenship is yes , the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. citizenship. When the questionnaire is completed and the voluntary relinquishment statement is signed by the expatriate, the consular officer will proceed to prepare a certificate of loss of nationality. The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval.
An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. citizenship may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was performed with an intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Of course, a person always has the option of seeking to formally renounce U.S. citizenship abroad in accordance with Section 349 (a) (5) INA.
DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS INAPPLICABLE
The premise that a person intends to retain U.S. citizenship is not applicable when the individual:
Cases in categories 2, 3, 4 and 5 will be developed carefully by U.S. consular officers to ascertain the individual’s intent toward U.S. citizenship.
APPLICABILITY OF ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE TO PAST CASES
The premise established by the administrative standard of evidence is applicable to cases adjudicated previously. Persons who previously lost U.S. citizenship may wish to have their cases reconsidered in light of this policy.
A person may initiate such a reconsideration by submitting a request to the nearest U.S. consular office or by writing directly to:
Express Mail:
Director
Overseas Citizens Services, Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)
Overseas Citizens Services
Bureau of Consular Affairs
U.S. Department of State
4th Floor
2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037
Phone: 202-736-9110
Fax: 202-736-9111
Email: ASKPRI@state.gov
Regular Mail
Director
Overseas Citizens Services, Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)
Overseas Citizens Services
Bureau of Consular Affairs
U.S. Department of State
SA-29, 4th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20520
Each case will be reviewed on its own merits taking into consideration, for example, statements made by the person at the time of the potentially expatriating act.
LOSS OF NATIONALITY AND TAXATION
P.L. 104-191 contains changes in the taxation of U.S. citizens who renounce or otherwise lose U.S. citizenship. In general, any person who lost U.S. citizenship within 10 years immediately preceding the close of the taxable year, whose principle purpose in losing citizenship was to avoid taxation, will be subject to continued taxation.
See …
Copies of approved Certificates of Loss of Nationality are provided by the Department of State to the Internal Revenue Service pursuant to P.L. 104-191. Questions regarding United States taxation consequences upon loss of U.S. nationality should be addressed to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service.
DUAL NATIONALITY
Dual nationality can occur as the result of a variety of circumstances. The automatic acquisition or retention of a foreign nationality, acquired, for example, by birth in a foreign country or through an alien parent, does not affect U.S. citizenship. It is prudent, however, to check with authorities of the other country to see if dual nationality is permissible under local law. Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship: the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government also recognizes the problems which it may cause. Claims of other countries upon dual-national U.S. citizens often place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts to provide U.S. diplomatic and consular protection to them when they are abroad.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
See also information flyers on related subject available via the Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs home page on the internet athttp://travel.state.gov. These flyers include:
02/ 01/2008
Return to Citizenship and Nationality
@Dianne” Outraged needs more than a copy of the general Oath of Allegiance. A blank copy does not mean anything.
To relinquish (if the US will accept it), she will need a copy of her actual signed Oath. I remember someone (I don’t remember who) posted that they were asked for a Certified Copy of the signed oath.
@Hijacked: Here is a link to obtain information from your CIC file: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/index.asp Tiger and I both found it was easier to submit a request via snail mail than it was to do it online. Good Luck.
@Hijacked
As Blaze mentioned above, we both found it easier to submit the request via snail mail. I had phoned the number from the website several times because I found the application available online very difficult to understand. When my phone call was eventually answered (about 1 week later), the director himself told me it was completely okay to just submit a letter requesting the information I needed and mailing it to the Ottawa address. I did that and because I gave them my email address, they sent the results to me within several weeks by email. I believe that Blaze received her results by regular mail. What I requested was a copy of my citizenship file, showing the oath with my signature. What I received was 10 pages with the two oaths (oath of allegiance and oath of renunciation of former citizenship). As Blaze said in a previous post, the files are on microfiche and therefore are blurry but readable.
@Dianne, and Blaze, I have a copy of my signed oath of allegiance, from CIC. It took me a long time to get it, because they refused the request until I got my mother to sign a form allowing me to request it. I was a minor, so the records were under her name. However, I did get it, finally. I signed the oath of allegiance in Nov 1975 as a 15 year old, and my citizenship is dated January 76, after I turned 16. As the Bard so eloquently put it, therein lies the rub. I was a minor. Because my mother had been told she was giving up US citizenship when she became Canadian, we thought the same held for me, not knowing that the US wouldn’t consider it relinquishment since I was a minor.
I emailed Health Canada yesterday to try to find out if my personnel record still exists from 1984 to see if maybe an oath of allegiance might be in there. I don’t know if I’d have to fill out a request form or not, I’m sure they’ll tell me if I do, but I thought it was worth a try after our dialogue yesterday. We’ll see. Hopefully, I’ll never have to use this stuff, but if I do, at least I’ll have what I need to try and prove the case of my intent, even tho I was a minor. Certainly I have a preponderance of evidence showing that I intended to relinquish and thought I was only Canadian, since I’ve had virtually nothing to do with the US since I moved to Canada.