Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
*Thanks for all the replies and info folks, it’s really going to help me.
Yes, I was born in the US of British parents but left while still at junior high school. The first I ever heard of having to pay US taxes was when I was visiting the English Forum website last year and then a few months later when the subject of me being American caused a last minute hiccup in our Swiss mortgage application. This was a total surprise to me as I had never heard of this so haven’t filed any, nor did my US naturalised mother file when we returned to England after my father passed away.
I’ll definitely be going back to the beginning of this thread to read up on what’s needed.
I’d like to read up on things in the forum too, but it says I need a password for that.
@Medea: Here is another thread you may find informative. Note, I did not use the word helpful because I think after reading this, you will realize you will likely need to renounce rather than relinquish US citizenship. That may also mean being compliant with IRS.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
*Yeah, I have had a read of that thread as well, thanks Blaze. But I had a thought yesterday. Although I have British nationality because my parents registered my birth at the British Embassy in the US at the time, if I made an appointment with the Embassy here in Switzerland to swear an oath of alligence to the Queen and Britain I presume I would then be able to relinquish the US citizenship once a document to that effect has been signed by a British consular official? Thoughts/comments?
@Medea: I don’t know if US Department of State would consider that a relinquishing act because you are already a British citizen. It might be worth a try.
However, even if the relinquishing act was accepted, that would only be effective from the date you commit the relinquishing act. IRS may still demand that you be compliant for the last five years. Then again, as Steven Mopsick has posted here, IRS may not bother about someone who has never been on their radar.
I know this is a huge quagmire. The big thing looming is, of course, FATCA. Does your bank in Britain know of your US place of birth? Are you now having difficulty banking in Switzerland due to your US place of birth?
*I’m not having difficulties with our Swiss bank yet, but they are aware that I have dual nationality which is why I’m doing research into the whole subject trying to anticipate problems.
I’m honestly not sure about the UK bank, but I think probably not as we simply made my husband’s accounts joint ones when we got married some 20+ years ago. If they needed some sort of ID at the time I would probably have shown my British driving licence as I wouldn’t have been carrying my passport/s around with me (unlike I do here). It would have had my place of birth on it, but whether they noted that fact other than as a point of interest by the person dealing with the account changes I’ve no idea.
I’m not sure that the US know of my dual nationality as such. Although my birth was registered at the British Embassy in the US and my British parents eventually took out US citizenship, dual citizenship wasn’t really spoken about much then (late 50s/early60s) – funnily enough because of the possibility of losing the US one. As far as I know there’s nothing in the US on record about it except my birth registration at the Embassy. I know when I first applied for a British passport they pointed out at the Embassy that the Americans might consider the US citizenship lost because of getting a British passport, but we took the chance and got it anyway and just never mentioned it when renewing the US one.
@ Medea,
Here is the clincher for the US: “… I have only used my US passport for entry to the States (last 2007)“.
Unfortunately, unless I am wrong, it is the fact that you have a US Passport. (It is part of my problem, for sure.)
@Medea Fleecestealer
May I ask what kind of “…last minute hiccup” did you have in applying for a mortgage in Switzerland? My mortgage is up for renewal at UBS.
*We were just going through all the final bits with our UBS bank manager and were getting ready to sign the forms when he wanted to confirm our nationalities with our Swiss Residence Permits. I mentioned that mine had American on it as I had entered the country with that one. Upshot was he had to go off and check with someone else (presumably the department handling all things US) to see if we could go ahead with the mortgage agreement signing. He disappeared for 5-10 minutes and then came back saying yes, okay and we signed the paperwork.
They did know this as, again, when we changed my husband’s Swiss accounts to joint ones they had asked for the Permits then, but had obviously forgotten all about it in the subsequent years until it came up re the mortgage. I now find that any questions I have re bank issues are dealt with by the other department as I’m on their radar.
Calgary411, if I thought cutting the thing into pieces and sending it back to the US Embassy would do the trick I’d probably do it, but unfortunately I’m afraid the Swiss banks (and others) will need more proof that I’m no longer a US citizen. And there we were, foolishly thinking we could do without all these silly little pieces of paper once everyone had computers, Internet, etc. HA!
@itacaf,
Did you pick up that important document?
* Can someone please clarify on the DS-4079 Form if it is necessary to list the “Dates and Countries of Residence Outside The United States Since Birth” for question 5 .. in other words, is it necessary to provide this information if the answer to question 5 is not applicable?
@CanadaExpat,
Were you born in Canada or another country? If so, you would answer from whatever the date of your birth is to present; if you have lived nowhere else, other than the US, then I would think the only answer you could give is “N/A”.
@CanadaExpat, DS-4079 gives no indication that that information is answerable only if you were born outside the United States. I.e., they may want that information for other reasons than for answering question 5. If so, does it hurt to provide the information? I thought it could only help my claim, since I’d lived outside the USA continuously since 1986. I provided the info, even though I was born in the USA.
*It’s more like another badly designed part of the form looking at it. At first glance I would consider it part of question 5 and therefore not applicable unless born outside the States as it’s in the same section as the question, but the “…Since Birth” suggests that they want the info regardless of where you were born.
If giving details of being out of the US for longer than you’ve lived there will help with the renunciation application then I’d include it.
@Calgary411
I finally got the CLN. Monday morning I went into the US Consulate
and picked up the package. I renounced March 7/12, the State Department
approved my release May 15/12. I guess all that’s left is to file all those
crazy forms for the first few months of 2012 and I’m free? I sure feel better anyway.
So, ‘almost’ finally. Congratulations on having your CLN in your hands. Is the actual date on it the date of your renunciation, March 7, 2012 (with Washington, I presume, approval of your RELEASE May 15, 2012?
Best wishes and thanks for all your participation here.
Please advise: I was born in 1958 in Boston Mass. My mother is American and father Canadian. As an infant came to Vancouver BC, where I reside to this day.I knew when I was young I had duel citizenship.I obtained my Certifate of Canadian Citizenship in 1981.I thought ,by becoming Canadian, I was no longer American.But not sure if this is true?
What do I need to do to relinquish, and do I need to pay taxes to the U.S.I have not worked or live in the U.S.The only thing I have connecting me to the U.S. is my birth cerficate.
PS if this was posted twice,sorry about that, computer problems.
*@Vancouver Girl, If your father was Canadian you should be as well. Do you know if you birth was registered. In 1958 the child of a Canadian father was a “Natural-Born” Canadian citizen, the birth however had to be registered within two years. If you are not sure if your birth was registered, you can make an access to information request with citizen and immigration. If your birth was registered, then you have been Canadian since birth. Getting a certificate was just proof of your existing citizenship. I obtained the same certificate also in the 1980’s. If your birth was not registered, then I am less clear on the law and the dates. There may have been a period of time when you were not Canadian. The way I understand it, is more recent changes in Canadian law have restored Canadian citizenship recto active to birth to some who had lost it in the past.
@Vancouver girl: Did you make pledge or do some other process of naturalization? Have you ever held a government job? Have you read these posts:
Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can
When relinquishing, actions speak louder than words
If you live in Vancouver you may have a NDP or Liberal or even conservative! MP. Contact them!
@Vancouver Girl. TrueNorth, Petros
I had a long telephone conversation with Vancouver Girl yesterday, she is a friend of a friend. I advised her to come here and ask some questions since I am not that familiar with the relinquishment process. I have to renounce and that is where all my researched is focused.
Vancouver Girl was born to a Canadian father but she was naturalized in 82. I presume that her birth was not registered by the 77 deadline, therefore she is not a natural born Canadian and had to naturalize.
Ironically the 2009 amendment to the citizenship act may have given her natural born status retroactively, but she still went through the naturalization process and executed the oath in 82.
My understanding is that the act of naturalization is an expatriating act and she can claim relinquishing rather than renouncing.
*Vancouver Girl & Just a Canadian, give those dates and the fact the birth was not registered would be good news. Vancouver Girl was then only a US citizen in 82, but became a Canadian. Relinquishment should then be backdated to 82. It is not 2009 that counts it’s what happened in 82. Vancouver Girl can still make an access to information request to get documentation to backup the claim of relinquishment.
Good News Vancouver Girl! You became a naturalized Canadian citizen in 1981. That was before the Supreme Court ruling of 1986. Before 1986, anyone who became a citizen of another country was considered to have “permanently and irrevocably” relinquished US citizenship. After the Supreme Court decision, it was not automatic.
There are some who might want to tell you that you are still a US citizen. Unless you have had a US passport, voted in a US election, had a US SSN, worked in US or filed income tax returns with IRS, you are under no obligation to be considered a US citizen.
You expatriation act (i.e. swearing allegiance to Canada and to the Queen) was also before the 2004 law which required relinquishment to be reported to US Department of State for IRS purposes.
So, you now have two options. One is Do Nothing. IRS is not likely to pursue you. Despite the posting from Canadian Bank Association here this week, your bank has no right to ask you about your place of birth under FATCA. Even if they do, you can honestly present your Canadian citizenship and tell them you relinquished US citizenship when you became Canadian.
Your second option to to go to the Vancouver Consulate with a copy of your 1981 Canadian citizenship certificate (and other documents) and honestly tell them that when you became a Canadian citizen, you did it with the voluntary intent of relinquishing US citizenship. In several months to a year, you will receive a Certificate of Loss of Nationality from US Department of State.
The choice is yours to make. Some Brockers want the CLN. Others (including me) don’t want to go anywhere near a US Consulate.
Please note, none of the above information is legal advice. It is based on what I have learned here and elsewhere.
Welcome to Brock. I hope you will continue to hang out here with us.
@Vancouver Girl,
I agree with Blaze. If you formally became a Canadian in a naturalization ceremony in 1981 AND have never since that date done anything to indicate you might not have intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship (i.e. applied for u.s. passport, filed tax returns to IRS, voted in an American election etc), then you have the absolute right to apply for a CLN as a ‘relinquisher’ and not as a ‘renouncer’. Also, as Blaze has said, since it was in 1981, you should have no obligation to file U.S. tax forms and FBARs.
The decision to do that must be yours. There are some on this site who choose to ignore the U.S. consulate. I would suggest that you apply for your citizenship file from “Access to Information” and you could choose to use that with your bank or crossing the border.
BTW – I, too, am a ‘Vancouver Girl’. (Well, perhaps a very mature Vancouver woman!!)
**Looking for help to find a thread I think I saw or linked to from this site about reliquishment. It was a thread where the applicant had videoed his declaration and then sent it with his application as proof of his intent. I’d just like to read it more fully, but I can’t seem to find the thread. Does it ring any bells with anyone, and if so, can you point me in the direction of it? I must have been looking at it a month to two months ago when I first started visiting the site after being pointed this way from the English Forum site here in Switzerland. Meanwhile, I’ll keep checking the archives to see if I can find it there.
Note: Somehow I managed to put this request under the Relinquishment and Renunciation Data thread. I must have been in that one by mistake as I thought I was in this at the time.
*Found it. Petros, was that a video of the ceremony or just a vid of you making some sort of declaration as further proof?