Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Tiger and TrueNorth – Thanks for both your comments and thoughts. I know more than I did just a short time ago, which will make it easier to read through other areas on this blog. Tiger, yes you are right – I need to do more reading and learning. TrueNorth, I like your style. Thanks guys!
@IAmCanadian: Your proposed nomadic life sounds idyllic, but I truly don’t think it will ever be necessary. Stay calm. An ancient passport is not going to put you in the range of The Sleeping Bear.
*@I Am Canadian, Here’s a quick outline of differences in renouncing and relinquishing. There are a few paperwork differences (DOS) between the two, but no IRS difference between them if the expatriating act occurs at this present time.
Definition, Renounce v. Relinquish. It can sound a little confusing because technically renunciation is a form of relinquishment. There are 7 ways to relinquish your citizenship (INA 349). In practice, we use the term relinquishment to refer to s. 349(1)(2) for lack of a more specific term.
Renunciation Fee. The renunciation fee, currently $450, was established in 2010. It only applies to renunciation (s. (5)).
***
If you’re wondering why so many of us are formalising our relinquishments after so many years … Relinquishment under (1)(2) used to be essentially automatic. But it no longer is automatic due to a Dept of State policy change ca. 1990, which was brought on by a series of US Supreme Court decisions. Not beingUS citizens anymore, none of us knew of this, which is why we’re scrambling to do the new formal procedure now and get the Certificate of Loss of Nationality (which pretty much no one ever heard of until the past year).
*RE: the $450 fee for renouncing – I’m assuming payment is required on the first visit, correct? Also, do they take credit cards? I don’t have to bring US cash, do I?
I continue to feel angst over this, especially when I read the oath one must take. 🙁 It seems surreal – like I’m getting a divorce, which in many ways that’s exactly what I’m doing. But then I read comments or articles posted elsewhere on this site and I think I have to do this in order to SURVIVE. If I don’t, it will be a great economic hardship to spend large fees on the extra forms now needed, plus lost opportunities to use TFSAs and other financial products that every other Canadian can purchase without threat of severe penalty. And I really can’t handle the stress of worrying FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE if I’ve forgotten something, or made an innocent error that will bring about ruinous penalties. I need to have my peace of mind back.
*SadCdn,
The $450 fee for renouncing has to be in US dollars, of course. If you bring US cash, the bills must have been printed since 2000 — I guess they’re worried about counterfeits. The Toronto consulate, at least, does seem to accept credit cards, but you should check by email first with whatever consulate you will be visiting.
Best of luck!
@SadCdn: I paid my renunciation fee with a Danish credit card in Danish kroner. You don’t need to bring US cash with you.
I paid in Euros (cash) and also had the option of using a credit card. You should check out what the exchange rate is that they are using at the consulate though, because I realised later that I ended up paying around $490 according to the exchange of the day that I paid. I assume that they receive some sort of official exchange rate once a month or less often and wished afterwards that I had just gone to get dollars from an exchange place, since the commission fee definitely would have been less than $40!
@SadCdn
I believe you indicated that you will be renouncing at the Vancouver Consulate. You pay the $450 fee at your second appointment and you can pay by credit card or US cash. In fact, I was told a few days ago by a consulate staffer that I could even pay in Canadian cash (which they presently take at par) but, if I’m paying in Canadian cash, I would need to be sure to bring some extra cash just in case the exchange rate changes. I will probably pay with credit card just in case they don’t provide a receipt. That way I would at least have a credit card record of my payment.
@AnonAnon You wrote “If you bring US cash, the bills must have been printed since 2000 — I guess they’re worried about counterfeits.” I have never been told this by the Vancouver Consulate and have not seen any mention of this by anyone else, so perhaps it is a peculiarity of the consulate you attended and, as you suggested, perhaps they have some concerns about counterfeit bills at that consulate.
*Thanks for your replies everyone! LadyBug, that’s a good point about having a receipt of payment, although Don Pomodoro you make a great point, too. Who wants to pay more than one has to?
*so when you take the “oath” or reverse oath, is the renunciation complete? do you get a certificate of loss of nationality right away before you leave the consulate? do they ask if you have any US legal issues, or whether you are on parole? btw… i was just at the Calgary consulate in june 2012 and they take a credit card for all the fees.
@Omimel,
The CLNs are taking up to one year to arrive inCanada , although Brockers have recently reported a lot of CLNs being received in Calgary , ranging from a 6 week to 7 month turnaround time. However, the certificate will show loss of citizenship having occurred the date the oath was signed.
To my knowledge they do not ask about legal issues They might do a background check on everyone, but I don’t know if they do or not. The consular official’s role is to ensure that the person is aware of the consequences of what they are doing and that they are doing it voluntarily. Apart from that, they don’t seem to ask much.
There is a reference to criminality in item 8 of the 4081 (Statement of Understanding of Consequences), that renunciation does not affect liability to prosecution for crimes committed in theUS before or after renunciation.
But I stress I really don’t know if they do a records check or not and/or inquire into such matters, just that no one’s mentioned having been asked.
4079 http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
4081 http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
*A thought for the day:
@ Ladybug and AnonAnon:
I can confirm that the US Embassy in Bern, Switzerland does NOT accept US$50 bills printed before 2000. Recently the embassy’s ACS cashier apologetically rejected the first $50 bill I presented (dated 1996), advising that their bank does not accept “old style” US currency so the embassy must follow suit. Perhaps a local issue.
*I am interested in relinquishing my US citizenship if at all possible and would love some advice. I was born in the US in the 60s to Canadian parents and moved to Canada at 5 months of age. Like many dual citizens, I had been told that I had to declare my intentions at the age of 18 (I now know this not to be true). As I did nothing, all my adult life I was under the impression that I was no longer American. I have never obtained a Social Security number, a US passport nor have I voted in the United States. I have travelled to and from the US and other countries with a Canadian Passport. Several months ago, the pending Fatca rules were brought to my attention along with the facts that I am considered American and should have been filing taxes all these years. I have no desire to be American and would like to find the easiest way to put this situation behind me. What advice can you give me on how to Relinquish my US citizenship (rather than Renounce) and what type of arguments I can make at the embassy given the facts of my situation. I really appreciate your help!
*With regard to Form DS – 4079 and question #11: When they ask about the “government of a foreign state” do they mean federal government only or are they also interested in jobs with provincial and municipal governments?
*@SadCdn – I interpreted it that way. (What’s the harm?)
@Zev – Ideally you have something in your past which is a potentially expatriating act. The list is here – http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
I would ask for a CLN, dating it to your first passport application as an adult. see (2) in the link.
*Thank you Broken Man!
*Does anyone know what specific acts are considered expatriating? Since I was essentially born a dual citizen (born in US to Canadian parents) I was never required to be naturalized nor take an oath. Would applying for a Canadian passport as an adult and never taking out a US passport qualify? I am almost disappointed right now that I didn’t commit an act of treason…..lol.
@all
Does the fact that zev was a dual citizen at birth (born in the US to Canadian parents) affect the possibility of him being able to relinquish rather than renounce.*
I remember reading a previous post by someone in Canada who said that they had to renounce in this situation. The only way to relinquish might be if Zev has ever worked for the Canadian government or been in the Canadian military. I was also born with dual citizenship (EU-US) and had the option to relinquish because I work for the EU, but I opted to renounce to be absolutely certain that I would lose US citizenship.
All is not lost though – If you renounce as someone who has held dual citizenship from birth the Exit Tax will not apply to you I believe!
*It’s a paradox that someone born and raised an American who became a naturalized Canadian many moons ago has a simpler case for relinquishment than a Canadian who was accidentally born in the US and has been entirely Canadian ever since.
However:
A Canadian passport application asks you to sign off on the statement:
The (US) Immigration and Naturalization Act says:
So draw your own conclusions.
@Zev: Because you were born a dual, you never committed an expatriating act to become a Canadian citizen. Therefore, it may be more difficult or even impossible for you to relinquish. You may have to renounce instead. I am not aware that the simple act of getting a Canadian passport is considered an expatriating act by the US.
Have you ever worked for the federal or provincial government in Canada? Were you required to sign an Oath of Allegiance to Canada and to the Queen in doing that? If you did, you may be able to make the case that you did so with intent of relinquishing US citizenship. Someone else on here did that (True North perhaps).
If not, your remaining option may be to renounce. That will require you to be compliant with IRS for five years. The problem with becoming compliant is filing returns with IRS is claiming US citizenship. You must get a SSN to do that–and pay big bucks to an accountant and possibly lawyer.
In your situation, I would do what Joe Smith often advises: Do Nothing.
You live in Canada. You’re a Canadian citizen. Canada has said strongly and repeatedly Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) will not collect any tax owing to IRS on a Canadian citizen even if that person was also a US citizen. CRA will also not collect any penalties for failure to file FBAR with IRS.
IRS has no jurisdiction in Canada or in Canadian courts. In terms of FATCA, current Canadian banking, privacy and human rights laws prohibit banks from asking about your place of birth. To date, we have had no indication the Canadian government will change those laws to accommodate a foreign government.
There will be others here who will give you different advice. The best you can do it take all the information and make a decision which gives you the most peace of mind. My own feeling is (to paraphrase Schubert): Don’t Wake The Sleeping Bear.
@Zev, the $64,000 question is whether you will be able to “comfortably” cross the border in the future. I am OLD (60+), and have decided not to do so. You may not feel that way. Who is your MP?
Hey, Joe. Since when is 60+ old?!? (Actually, I always thought that too–until I reached that magical 60 over a year ago.)
Many moons ago, the 60s were the era of our youth. Now it’s our age. Yikes! How did that happen?!?
Old in the sense my parents are gone, and uncles and aunts are mostly gone… my life is now in Canada… and I have no reason to consider entering the USA. And since I now have no interest or need to enter the USA I cannot expect that will change. If I was 40… it might be different.