Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@SadCdn, please consider whether you have the right to relinquish, instead of renouncing. See the following posts:
Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can, When relinquishing, actions speak louder than words
My opinion is that you don’t need a lawyer to expatriate unless you run into a snag. Then, it may be helpful. Expatriation is a fundamental right. Do you need a lawyer to vote? One should be able to exercise a fundamental right without the help of lawyer.
*@SadCdn –
I didn’t feel I needed a lawyer at any point in the renunciation process, but YMMV.
You can renounce any time you want, and log out of the US tax system when the various forms for 2012 are issued at the end of the year.
*@Petros – I really can’t relinquish, IMO. I filed returns for over 30 years, used a US passport, and voted in presidential elections (so I could be a “good” American). I even voted for Obama in 2008 when I was still innocent and hopeful. 🙁 My case should be simple and straightforward, but when it comes to the US government they seem to have a knack for making the easy complicated. Thanks for your advice and thank you for all the work that you do on the blog!!
@Broken Man – Thank you. What does “YMMV” mean?
*Your Mileage May Vary.
@SadCdn
You mentioned that you would be using the Vancouver consulate as your place of ‘renunciation’. You can access them online and book an appointment through the website. The appointment needs to be booked through “notarial services”. Good Luck.
If your 100% sure…email Vancouver consulate vancouveracs@state.gov and tell them you want to renounce…they will get back to you with instructions …from the experience of a close friend who says the process is easy..you don’t need a lawyer.
i would suggest you read everything you can on renouncing… the internet is full of info.
@SadCdn, it seems to me that renunciation is a pretty straightforward process–usually takes two visits: (1) where they patronize you to make sure you understand what you are doing and insist that you come back after you have thought it over; (2) where you take the oath of renunciation. I was spared the second visit because I relinquished.
There is no reason to wait, once you make the decision. Tax issues may be settled afterwards. Indeed, the 8854 can only be filed with the final tax return.
An to you and everyone who benefits from the blog–on behalf of all the contributors (authors and commentors), you are welcome.
@all.
My wife got a letter at the end of May/early June telling her to send an email to the Vancouver consulate to set up a second appointment for her relinquishment. It has now been two weeks, and no response of any kind. We’re only 10 days away from heading to Spain for a month and I was hoping to get this done before we left.
Anyone else having trouble booking the second appointment? What troubles me is we started this process March 15, and here we are at the end of June and it hasn’t even left the Vancouver consulate yet. I’m sure we’ll send another note before we go, but if anyone out there has been successful in booking that second appointment, it would be useful to know how long it took for the response to the email.
DW*
@Arrow
How disheartening for both you and your wife. It makes no sense that it would take this long to get a second appointment for what should be an easy file, i.e. expatriating act performed decades ago and just wishing confirmation in the form of a CLN. There should be a standard whereby all consulates treat individuals in the same manner. I can understand needing a second appointment for ‘renouncing’, but not for ‘relinquishment’.
*@all – Thank you so much for your input! I really appreciate it! I’m going to double check with my tax preparer before I go ahead just to make sure there is nothing that could come back to bite me, but all should be fine. I’m way, way under the 2 million limit and have filed US tax returns since I was 16. Still, I want to be sure there are no nasty surprises. I’ll keep you posted . . .
@SadCdn, Do you suppose your tax preparer knows about renunciation of citizenship? Why would you trust a tax preparer to know? First find out if the person has any knowledge about renunciation. I say this because some of our people have received incorrect advice from their tax preparers. In one case I know of, the tax preparer informed a person who ended up relinquishing that she had to prepare her taxes for 5 years (at high cost) before she could relinquish. Fact is she had relinquished decades ago, and did not have to file anything at all. She had only to go into the Consulate to clarify her citizenship status so that she could receive a back-dated CLN. Your tax preparer will likely tell you that you must have your taxes prepared for the last five years BEFORE you can renounce. This is not correct. You must do so after renouncing, if your date of expatriation is after June 3, 2004 and if you want to have the IRS clear you as not being a “covered expatriate”. The Form 8854 requires that you swear that you have been tax compliance for the last five years. But the tax preparer will also require that you file FBAR for the last five years too. This I have a problem with. Why bother telling the IRS about your bank accounts after you’ve expatriated? I think that is (1) none of their business; (2) a violation of your rights; (3) only going to create problems for you.
We are eventually going to start a group called “Expats Anonymous”. If you are tempted to present your bank information to the IRS, you are required to call your sponsor who will talk you out of it. Tax preparers make money off your compliance in every respect, even when it is not the best idea.
*@Petros – I understand what you’re saying about needing to check out whether the tax preparer is familiar with renouncing. Until the last couple of years, no one really knew how to do it because it was so rare. I realize many, many people have been given misinformation. It almost seems like chaos reigns when it comes to this topic.
In my case, however, I am up-to-date with US tax requirements (as much as anyone can be given how quickly things change). The IRS has my returns for almost 40 years. They also already have my FBARS. So at this point I just need to complete 1040, 1040NR, and 8854 after my expatriation date.
I’m taking the plunge now because both my parents have passed away. I’ll never be able to live in the US again (no Medicare or SS benefits), and I want to be able to take advantage of TFSAs like other Canadians. I just don’t see the point of retaining my US citizenship. I do want to continue to visit the US so I want to make sure everything is done properly with no mistakes. I don’t want anything to come back and bite me.
*@SadCdn, Renunciation is very easy, you can did it yourself. In my case it started with a phone call and an hour of listening to elevator music. Once a live person came on the phone they gave me an email address, I emailed them requesting an appointment date, they emailed back with open dates, I picked one, then they sent a confirming email. Just show up for the appointment with some ID. The consulates in Canada have done so many by now I’m sure they can walk you through the steps with their eyes closed.
Sounds like you are up to date on your taxes, but if not taxes are not a requirement for renouncing.
*@TrueNorth – thanks for the reassurance! I’m finding this whole process a very scary “adventure.” It’s great to hear from people who have been through it.
@SadCdn, you can also email the Consulate that you wish to visit. If in Ontario, folks prefer the Toronto consulate over Ottawa and they responded immediately to an email (put your phone number in it and they might just call you back–I was flabbergasted to get a call back!).
Also, I agree completely about the TFSA. For me that was a major consideration.
@SadCdn, I echo Petros, be wary of renunciation advice from tax prepapers and other professionals. Misconceptions and misinformation about expatriation are rampant. A good tax preparer or accountant can be very useful, for sure. But the important thing, when it comes to advice about renunication, is that a person knows enough to be able to tell if the professional is knoweldgeable or not … it’s such a sub-niche area that many professionals are out of their league (and don’t even know it, passing on misinformation as if it were fact). It sounds like you’ve been doing your research on renouncing and you’ll just be using your tax preparer for doing the tax forms, which makes sense. Some do their own tax forms, some use a professional, either way makes sense.
I definitely concur that you don’t need a lawyer to renounce. It’s quite a straightforward procedure. We have one complaint with Vancouver, that they’re slow and the process drags on longer than it should there. Apart from that, people are finding Vancouver to be quite professional and pleasant to deal with. We have five or six reports describing Vancouver renunciation/relinquishment interviews in the Consulate Report Directory.
A new article from the “The Local” — Switzerland’s News in English:
“Swiss-Americans ditch US passports”
http://www.thelocal.ch/3611/20120626/
*Hello, I immigrated to Canada in 1971 as I found a job in Canada. My children were born here. In 1978, I became a Canadian citizen and stopped pay U.S. taxes as I was told at the time that I had lost my U.S. citizenship once I pledged allegiance to another country and voted in another country’s election. Since then I have lived and worked only in Canada. But my Canadian passport (I never re-applied for a U.S. passport after becoming a Canadian) say that I was born in the U.S. I still have relatives in the U.S. who are sick and dying. But I am afraid to go there because of this situation. I have been told that the U.S. can unilaterally decide I am still an American. This seems totally ridiculous but at the same time I am afraid to travel. Can someone tell me if people in my situation are affected by this tax problem. Thank you. Harry Qualman
*harry, take your time, relax a bit, don’t worry.
Firstly, There is no evidence of Canadians , born in the US, being stopped at the border. You can safely visit your relatives. You may find a friendly border guy who, trying to be helpful, advises you that you are eligible to reclaim your US citizenship which you most assuredly gave up. If so, just say ‘Thank you very much- I will consider carefully what you told me’- and then move on.
Secondly, you have no tax or filing obligations to the US. You can ignore the problem. You are Canadian. You gave up your US citizenship. At that time there was no need to tell anyone in the US- there still isn’t any need. As our friends on Coronation Street would say ‘End Of.’
*Harry Qualman, your situation is almost exactly the same as mine. Most of us on this site are using pseudonyms because of fears like yours.
I am now going through the process of having the US acknowledge that I have not been a US citizen since I became a Canadian citizen over 30 years ago. That requires making a visit to a US consulate and signing some forms. It is time-consuming and a bit stressful but does not involve a fee. Ultimately, it should result in the Department of State issuing you a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) that confirms your relinquishment of US citizenship in 1978. You should be able to use that with your Canadian passport to travel to the US, and it should keep the IRS at bay. I am in the middle of that process now.
The relevant forms to start the process are DS-4079 and DS-4081. Just Google “DS-4079” and “DS-4081” you will find them on-line in PDF format, along with instructions. Also, see other entries on this Isaac Brock Society web site, particularly the one http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
Just make sure that you apply to confirm that you have “relinquished” your US citizenship, rather than that you are “renouncing” your US citizenship. Relinquishment occurred when you became a Canadian, whereas renouncing is for people who are currently dual citizens — NOT you.
@Harry: Like AnonAnon I am in pretty much the same situation as you. I found out about this mess last November and had an appointment in January to inform the Consulate that I had relinquished in 1973. I have not returned to visit people in the US and doubt I would go right now for any jaunts but I think I feel very safe in crossing if I have to.
@Harry,
Like you I became a Canadian citizen decades ago (1972) and believed that I was no longer an American. I have not yet filed for my Certificate of Loss of Nationality (as AnonAnon is in the process of doing), but having read this site, I am confident that I TRULY AM NO LONGER AN AMERICAN. I also feel confident that the Department of State would issue me the CLN.
At least two cross border tax attorneys that post on this site, have also indicated that should we choose to file for the CLN, we would have no obligation to file tax forms.
A couple of weeks ago, I crossed the border at a land crossing. My Canadian passport shows an American place of birth. I had absolutely no problem crossing the border.
Stay calm, arm yourself with information from this site and then make a decision on whether or not you will file for a CLN. Many on this site have filed for the CLN and are in the process of ‘waiting game’ and others on the site, have made the decision to not file for the CLN. Whatever you decide to do regarding a CLN, do nothing regarding tax forms. You have absolutely no obligation to file tax returns nor FBARs with the U.S. government.
Could anyone please let me know which renounce or relinquish my mother should do. She was born in Canada before 1935. Her mother was Canadian and her father was American. She has a Canadian birth Cert, and a Canadian passport. 2 years ago she applied for a USA passport since she qualified and thought it would be fun to have a USA passport as well. We had no idea and were not advised about all the problems with this. She does not have a SSN number. has never worked lived or invested in the USA. She would like to go back to just being Canadian as she had been for 76 years. She does not want to give the IRS all of her banking information, she is well below any level that they would tax. Can she just relinquish, and if so would she use her Canadian passport to travel to the USA?
Has she ever actually used the US passport? That might make a difference.
In the case of Miranda, a confession to a crime was thrown out of court because the Police failed to inform the suspect of his 5th Amendment right to remain silent. Now, by analogy, did your mother really know what the responsibilities of US citizenship were when she applied for the passport. Did the US officials tell her that she would have to file tax returns and inform Treasury about her bank accounts. Did they inform her of her right to remain a Canadian, and that any US citizenship claims can and will be used against her in court of law?
*She has never used her US passport, and was not informed at the consulate when applying about any tax reporting responsibilities or having to inform the treasury about her bank accounts. If they would have advised her of this she would never have done it. She had no intention of ever moving or working in the USA. She has never had any money in a US bank. They also did not inform her of her right to remain only Canadian. She did not know any of the consequences of getting the USA passport. She has had a Canadian passport for years which shows she was born in Canada.