Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Okay, so I guess my plan will be to do nothing. If I do get a pissy border guard or customs official I will simply say that I have relinquished and “in the process” of formalizing it? I’m even pretty sure I had to sign an oath to the Queen when I took my job…..perhaps I can get a copy of that I can travel with.
I have no intention of filing anything. I knw I don’t owe anything (though I’m not sure about my TFSA and the darned FBAR) but it is the principle of it. They have no right to my information.
*Susan. You’re on the right track. Don’t worry about your TFSA – you have no intention of filing US returns-nor should you. Don’t worry about FBAR-same reason. Don’t worry about FATCA- you are Canadian.
However, never tell an untruth to a border guy. They can bar you forever. Simply say ‘I’m Canadian- I was brought back as a baby.’
*@Susan, Dianne, I am sorry to see how upset you are, I have been there and are still there but not quite as bad as I was. I did file but it was out of fear, I acted too quick. I wish I would have waited to see what would be on the horizon. Sometimes when you are so fearful you can act without really thinking it out..especially when accountants and lawyers want to push you into it.. I am a worrier and that did not help.
I have lived in Canada for 35 years, but my biggest mistake was not becoming a Canadian Citizenship, so now I am in the process of that.. Please try to relax, I know it is hard. We are all in this together and there is alot of wonderful people on this site that will help in anyway they, we can.
Ultimately we know deeply that the
other side of every fear is freedom.”
@Dianne & Susan, I came to Canada as a small child and became a Canadian citizen as a minor. I do have concerns that because I was a minor the DOS won’t recognize my relinquishment in 76. Believing I was Canadian only, I have lived my life as a Canadian. It is my hope that they will buy in to the preponderance of evidence that I intended to relinquish and therefore meant it. I have not yet applied for a CLN, I am still waiting for my immigration and citizenship records from CIC. However, I have zero intention of filing taxes or FBARs to a foreign country. I am still waiting for something to come out of the govt-to-govt talks that they are supposed to be having about the people like us that are caughts in this horrific trap. Between these ‘talks’ and 30 Year IRS Vet’s comments about making the IRSs day if we suddenly started filing taxes, I have some hope (albeit not a lot) that there will be some resolution. I am depending upon our govt’s protection, both in that they will not collect fbar fines or taxes on me because any imaginary liability would have arisen while I was a Canadian citizen, and that they recognize that it’s a ridiculous situation and needs resolution.
There are many of us that are sitting back and waiting, and personally, I think that’s the wisest course right now. At this point we don’t even know what form FATCA will take, and what the banks can get away with asking, legally. I’ve moved my RRSPs so they have no US investment, which I see as a preventative measure in case things go bad for us.
It’s a little easier for me than some, I think, because I can easily NEVER cross into the US again. In fact, just on principal, I don’t want to. I even became upset at the news the other day because our govt wants to spend $1billion on a bridge to the US, instead of spending it on jobs and healthcare and education. (My husband says maybe I’m a little bit sensitive about anything to do with the US.)
Okay, I realized I’m rambling here, but I wanted you to know that there is another person in similar shoes to yours (and they’re not Manolo Blahnik’s) and that I am sticking to my guns of not filing anything to the US, and that there may be some way for us to get out of this gracefully if we don’t rush into anything, but just hang on (as nerve wracking as that is), and wait for a while until some of the radioactive dust settles and we see what the actual FATCA requirements are, and what the Can Govt is willing to do to protect it’s citizens.
@Chester 12
A technical question. How did you get the youtube to show in the comments? Since the cut over to .ca, I have not been able to make that happen like I did at .com So just curious the steps you took? Thanks
@all, nice to see others refusing to file taxes or FBAR statements. One other thought comes to mind, at no time did I ever want to admit to the them that I was an American, I thought I had relinquished decades ago. I asked them if they believed I was an American, it was only after they said that I was an American citizen that I booked my appointment. I don’t know if it will ever matter, but at the time I did not want a potential renunciation by myself to been seen as an acceptance that I was a US citizen. I renounced only after being told by an US official I was a citizen, and because this was their view, not mine.
*I guess that I too will now sit back and wait. I have moved out of US equities and changed my financial advisor (as my previous one was going to report me to the IRS), so I should be ok for now. Do accountants have any requirements with FATCA? Hopefully not! I will be flying through the US mid-August – so hopefully that will go OK. I hate having this hanging over my head!
@True North, I see your point, and why you would have felt you need to renounce. My position is that a US official has no authority over me, as a Canadian citizen. If my govt doesn’t stand up for me, and work some kind of deal to get us out of this, then it may cause some inconveniences in my life. If that’s all it is, inconvenience, not being able to travel to the US, I can live with that. If it’s more, if the govt caves in completely to the bullying, I may have to reconsider, but after Flaherty has publically spoken out, I don’t see how they can take the protection that we currently have away.
*Just Me… I found the clip on You Tube. It had a unique URL. I copied and pasted this into the IBS comment. I was surprised when it appeared as an imbedded clip rather than just a link. Wonders never cease as the internet improves on a daily basis. Who can keep up?
*Accountants have no FATCA requirements. Cross border accountants with IRS certification are obliged to follow IRS rules (Supposing they can understand them).. Some Canadian estate executors with US connections such as large corporate trust companies could be problematic. We changed executors for that reason. We will change financial advisors if RRSPs are not exempted from FATCA rules. Our current guy knows one of us was born in the south but he has implied nudge nudge wink wink that he won’t ask and we won’t tell. He has his fees to protect.
@Chester…
I have tried that too, and it did NOT work, so not sure why. I am assuming you are using the unique address that you copy from the Share button? Is that right? Please confirm. Thanks.
*Not exactly , I didn’t use the share button. I merely copied the URL from my browser (Safari) to the IBS comments page. No idea why it worked.
@Chester12.
I tried that over here, and it works! Thanks for the help.
Will the government really help us or do we need to fend for ourselves?
@Susan: Both Jim Flaherty and Canada Revenue Agency have been clear. CRA will NOT collect penalties owing for failure to file FBARs for any Canadian citizen or resident and will NOT collect any tax liability owing to IRS for any Canadian citizen, even if that person is also a US citizen.
So, as a Canadian citizen, you and your assets are fully protected from IRS by the Canadian government.
IRS cannot come after you in a Canadian court, wo what are they going to do? Why would they be interested in you in the first place?
In terms of FATCA, we’re all waiting to see what the end result is and what the Canadian government may negotiate. We’re also waiting to see what the banks do. They can’t ask about place of birth without violating Canadian laws.
Again, I urge you not to rush into anything. Take your time, learn and stay connected.
We all understand where you’re coming from and how frightening this is. We’ve all been there– and still have our moments when we return to that dark place. But, panic is the worst thing you can do.
As Schubert said in another thread: Don’t Wake the Sleeping Bear! (I’m paraphrasing).
@Susan,
I trust Canada will honour what our Finance Minister has promised. I wish we knew that more was going on behind the scenes — it is my fervent hope that something is. I hope Canada will remain strong against all this to protect its one million “US citizens” and supposed “US persons”.
I’ll put the following here as well as I think it so powerful a statement regarding FATCA from Terry Campbell, President of The Canadian Bankers Association. Please watch and listen to the video that Tim has posted on another thread.
Hang in there, Susan and Diane. We’re glad you’ve joined us here. The support you’ll receive from others here is golden!
Submitted on 2012/06/14 at 8:03 pm
Canadian Bankers Association Terry Campbell brought up FATCA again in another speech in Vancouver earlier this month. Video Below. FATCA remarks start at about 20:30
My comment was:
@Tim,
The excellent summary that Mr. Campbell gives to his audience of what US FATCA law means for Canada should be front page news.
Where are the journalists whose job it is to inform the Canadian people of what FATCA means to Canadian banks, the Canadian economy and an unjust cost stolen from the pockets of anyone who banks in Canada? This story needs to kept in the forefront?
Okay. I really do understand what you are all saying about staying low. And that will be my course of action for now. However, IF something comes up where my citizenship is questioned I want to make sure I understand what I have been reading so I can stand up for myself. From a link posted above……
Losing It – Giving It Up
The second way to lose citizenship is to voluntarily perform any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing citizenship:
Performance of one of the acts listed above causes loss of US citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing US citizenship—even committing an act of treason.
Relinquishment Through a Past Voluntary Act
Since 1990 the US Department of State has applied an administrative presumption that a US citizen intends to retain citizenship when he or she obtains naturalization in a foreign state; subscribes to a routine declaration of allegiance to a foreign state; or accepts a non-policy level employment with a foreign government. A ‘routine declaration of allegiance’ is generally one which does not contain a provision requiring the person to renounce former allegiances. This presumption has been incorporated into the standard US passport application form, the DS-82, which now requires persons who have committed a potentially expatriating act to provide an explanatory statement under oath or affirmation as to the conditions under which they performed the act.
If the US citizen did perform any of the potentially expatriating acts and in doing so had the intention of relinquishing citizenship, he or she may appear before a US consular officer to document this fact. The former citizen will fill out a form and sign a voluntary relinquishment statement.
If the Department of State approves the finding that the former US citizen had relinquished citizenship, the Department issues a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (‘CLN’) which is sent to the former US citizen, together with that person’s cancelled US passport. The CLN will state that citizenship was lost at the time the expatriating act was performed.
When I read this 2 things stand out to me……although I am employed with the Federal Government it is not a policy level position and employment began in 2001. So according to this website the US presumes that I intended to retain citizenship. How can I say that I did not. Would the simple fact that I have never had a passport or SSN indicate I never intended to retain citizenship?
@Susan
You are correct in that after 1990, the rules changed. However, if as you say, you have never applied for a US passport, a SSN, voted in a US election, then it should be relatively easy to show that your ‘intent’ was to relinquish US citizenship
**Just so people that are in the same situation as me can know… I
was a born U.S.citizen and became a Canadian in 1971 …I went to a U.S. consulate last year and applied
for a CLN. It took 9 months for them to send it back to me registered mail…it was dated back to the 1971 date that i had become a Canadian
I know this isn’t relinquish/renounce related exactly but I need a bit of advice regarding “squeaky wheels”. The I-407 (Green Card version of relinquish you might say) I submitted to the USCIS was received by them on May 15th. I have not yet received their official stamp of approval via the self-addressed envelope I included in my I-407 package. What would be an appropriate amount of time to wait before I send a reminder letter to them? (Don’t worry, I’d keep it Canadian polite.) I don’t want to be annoyingly squeaky because they might get snarky and sit on that I-407 even longer but on the other hand I would like them to know that I am still waiting and expect them to do their part without undue delay. I think someone in Europe got his/her stamped I-407 within weeks but I don’t remember who it was.
*I have a consular appointment to apply for a CLN to document my pre-1980 relinquishment. However, one thing still concerns me: Form DS-4081 (Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of … ) requires a relinquisher to sign that, among other things, “… I understand that I must contact the United States Internal Revenue Service.”
In the light of the opinion by Michael J. Miller ( http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/15/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/ ) and the piece by Jack Townsend (Never Speak to an Investigator), I’m not sure whether I should agree to contact the IRS at all, and, if so, what information to provide to them. Not that I would end up owing them any money. It’s the principle of the thing, plus the time and headache of doing all the paperwork that concerns me. I don’t suppose the consular official will agree that I can just strike that paragraph from form DS-4081 before I sign it.
Any opinions about this issue? I’m sure it applies to a lot of people.
This bad dream just goes on an’ on an’ on.
*@old gringo Congratulations! What consulate did you use?
@Anon-anon I don’t know your story but I know someone last week got their CLN from Calgary and never filed any back taxes. He had no SSN. Not sure how he handled that part of the form. Maybe he’ll see your post and tell you what he did. I’m pretty sure if you were to contact the IRS after you relinquish and if you don’t have a SSN, they won’t know what to tell you. I sure wouldn’t ask the consul to strike it off the form. If you have never been on the IRS radar, I would just get the CLN and ignore them.
Anon-Anon: You expatriated prior to 1986 by becoming a citizen of another country. You were automatically considered to have lost US citizenship.
Based on Michael’s fabulous post last week, anyone who relinquished prior to 2004 was not required to advise IRS. Therefore, my opinion–in Schubert’s words–is: Don’t Wake The Sleeping Bear!
Does anyone know if you retain your SSN after you renounce? I think I read somewhere on this site that after renouncing their SSN was no longer ‘active’.
If I renounce and then later have some US-source income that requires paperwork to eliminate withholding, will I use my original SSN or apply for an ITIN, which is what a non-resident alien would normally apply for and use?
*@Gabriel
your SSN becomes invalid for employment purposes, it is never cancelled.
You would need it to apply for social security benefits is you qualify