Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Bushwacker: I am in the same position and I am taking exactly the same approach as you. I relinquished 38 years ago and have done nothing since to reclaim US citizenship. I would like the CLN for my bank and for crossing borders but I have no intent to do anything for the IRS as I owe them not even paperwork.
@Bushwacker & johnnb, I’m with you both. I have zero intention of filing anything with the IRS. The only reason I want a backdated CLN is for proof to my bank I am not a US person. I’m holding on off trying to get the CLN, as I’m very afraid that because I was a minor they will not honour it. At the time, I knew that I was giving up US citizenship (according to both Can & US law) but was unaware that a minor could not give up citizenship.I was 16 and knew what I was doing – I was darn proud to become a Canadian, officially. If I had known I would have officially relinquished (again) when I turned 18. I am hoping that since 1976 I have acted solely as a Canadian will tip the scales in my favour, but I’m afraid it won’t…. To be on the safe side, I have no US investments, so I don’t think there’s much they can do to me. So, I’m playing a waiting game.
@Bushwhacker. There are several people I’ve been helping who, like you, thought they had given up USC decades ago and who have gone forward with relinquishments. Check out the database on relinquish/renounce at the top of the home page; roughly two thirds of the folks who have reported their stories to Brock regarding the Toronto consulate have relinquished. It’s the only consulate for which we have data, in which relinquishments clearly outnumber renunciations.
@Arrow. Your treatment by the Vancouver consulate is outrageous, almost as outrageous as at least one case I know concerning consular “services” at the embassy here in Ottawa. I appreciate that travel can be expensive and inconvenient, especially from BC (I assume that’s where you are) to almost anywhere else in the country, but there are absolutely no requirements that you do your interview at the consulate nearest your residence. You can do this at any consulate in Canada. (I personally know three people so far who have conducted their interviews and had their forms processed by a consulate in a city other than where they live, when there was a consulate in their city of residence which had been playing nasty games.) Please have a close look at the two documents on the top of the home page, both the listing of cases by consulate and also the directory that contains descriptive accounts of how the interviews went, and consider some alternatives, if travel is an option for you. If necessary, it is possible to get a case transferred to a different consulate if the one you went to is being recalcitrant or just plain incompetent in dealing with you; I know of at least one Brocker who managed to do this. I also believe the offending consular officer in that specific case was reprimanded from within his/her food chain over his/her behaviour, from what I’ve heard. Consular officers are not independent warlords and do not have unlimited authority to treat you however the hell they want to, whatever they or we may think.
The latest from Robert Wood at Forbes:
“Should We Renounce (The Expat Tax)?”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/05/29/should-we-renounce-the-expat-tax/
I wonder if he is following Isaac Brock?
@Recalcitrant
I’m trying to get an appointment asap, but like I said they won’t give me one. They keep saying that they “will contact me” once a slot opens up. I am particularly annoyed since they “offered” me an appointment during a huge holiday week in my country when nobody is here – When I got the message I wasn’t even in the country so what could I do. I wish that they would just give me an appointment in advance so that I could know when it is…They keep claiming that they don’t “have any timeslots for a renunciation ceremony at this time” and they’ve been saying the same rubbish since late February. How can they be so busy that they can’t have a 30 minute slot open or so disorganised that they are unable to enter an appointment in the future? Maybe they have been instructed to be dysfunctional so that no one can actually renounce?
As it is now I am getting fed up with them and will explore other consulates in the EU, possibly even ones in Central and Eastern Europe which under no circumstances could not have any appointment slots open since there are almost no “US persons” in most of these countries.
*very good post by Phil Hodgen on expatriation issues, costs and benefits – and a look into the possible future for those of us living outside the US:
http://hodgen.com/phils-blog/ “Why people expatriate” June 5, 2012, 6:10 pm
Thanks, Badger for the link. You are correct – it is an excellent post by Phil Hodgen. Certainly confirms what I have been thinking for some time – decisions should be made sooner not later!
*This is my first venture onto the Blog although I have been reading it almost daily since December. A thousand thanks to all of you who have been my rock and support for all these months. I have sent testimonials to Congressional members via ACA but have not, until now, participated in blogging.
I have a question regarding Form W-8CE, the “Notice of Expatriation and Waiver of Treaty Benefits”. Do I understand correctly that this is a form I would have to file with my bank if I have a RRIF? By signing this form am I notifying the bank that they must withhold 30% of my account’s total earnings or 30% of just the account’s U.S. source earnings? For all the verbiage in these forms there is still so much that is inadequately explained. Thanks in advance for any assistance!
For those of you struggling with the difficulty of obtaining your CLN, this story at the WSJ should be of interest to you…
It’s Hard to Become a Non-Citizen, Too
*Damocles.. I hardly think so. Are you in fact a covered expatriate? Most of us would not be. If you are not, W-8CE is NOT for you. What is your status? I think it is more likely you want form 8891.
*How does one actually relinquish? DO I have to go to the embassy? I’m not even sure if my situation qualifies. I’m not really an “expat” since I am one of the “accidental Americans”. I was born in the US but to Canadian parents. I have lived in Canada since before my first birthday. I did see on the list of things to do to relinquish that you be employed by a foreign government. I am actually a Canadian Public Servant so I think this should qualify. Can I have the relinquishing of citizenship backdated to when I started this job? And again, how do I actually relinquish? Does relinquishing require filing of back taxes? (I am so confused and want this all to go away)
*Don’t rush into anything. You are quite safe if you do nothing. The IRS can’t touch you. Read all you can and then make an informed decision. A good start is here http://renunciationguide.com/
Don’t file any US tax returns without competent advice. To do so would admit you are a US person and your default position should be that you are not.
@Susan: Welcome. First of all, do NOT panic. Take your time to learn and assess before you make any decisions.
First, some good news. Canada Revenue Agency will not collect any penalites for the IRS on any Canadian citizen or resident. CRA will also not collect any tax liability for IRS for a Canadian citizen, even if that person is also a US citizen. IRS has no jurisdiction in a Canadian court.
Canadian government has told us they are attempting to negogiate an agreeement with US on FATCA. We don`t know what that will mean. What we do know is that Canadian banking, privacy and human rights laws prohibt it your bank from asking about your place of birth. We have seen no indication of any plans to change Canada`s laws to accomodate the Americans.
We are lobbying Canadian government to ensure the rights of Canadians are protected from a foreign government. We have also conacted numerous organzations about our rights and will continue to do so. Three of us have consulted one of Canada`s leading constitutional lawyers.
You were a dual citizen from birth and there are some special rules relating to that. I`m not as familiar with that as some others are.
To relinquish or renounce, you have to go to a US Consulate or Embassy. If I were you, I would not rush into that. I would try to stay off their radar for now. I would wait and see what the Canadian government negogiates.
Have you ever had a US passport, worked in US, had a social security number, voted in US elections or filed US income tax returns? If you have, it will be difficult to relinquish. You would probably have to renounce because doing any of those things was claiming your US citizenship.
Also, working for a foreign government as you have done is a ground for expatriating if you did it volunarily with the intent to relinquish. However, this usually has to be in a policy level position.
You likely took an Oath of Allegance to the Queen and to Canada when you joined the government. I don’t know if the US would accept that as an expatriating act for relinquishing. Voting in a foreign election (ie Canadian) may also be grounds to expatriate, but I don’t know what the Consulate accepts for relinquishing relating to that.
A lot depends on when you did all of this. When did you join the federal public service? When did you sign an Oath of Allegiance (which was likely your first day at work).
I also would not file income tax returns to IRS as that is claiming your US citizenship and puts you on their radar. An accountant or lawyer might advise you differntly, but that is my personal advice. If, however, you want to renounce, you have to be compliant for five years, so that is a real Catch 22.
This is all very complicated. I hope I haven’t confused you further.
Do you have a need to travel to US? If not, you have the protection of the Canadian government right here in Canada.
Most importantly, Susan, stay calm and stay connected with us here at Brock. It’s an amazing source of information and support.
@Susan, My own situation was almost the same as yours. You would go to a United States embassy outside of the US .
There you would fill out a form DS-4079. You would have had to have done
one of the possible expatriating actions in the INA act. You would also
need to have done so with the intent to relinquish US citizenship.
Supply them with the expatriating act, the date, and explain to them that you did so with the intent to relinquish US citizenship. Employment by a foreign government was, but I don’t know if it still is an expatriating act.
The question would be what the law was when your employment started.
DOS would I think without question accept becoming a Canadian citizen as
an expatriating act, this is the impression I got from the consul I spoke to. When I said I was Canadian by birth the consul seemed to think that anything less than becoming a naturalized Canadian might not be accepted in Washington. When I get a CLN, (soon I hope) I will see if it is backdated or not. The question you may be asked is did you take the job just because you needed to work, or did you take the job and swear an oath to relinquish citizenship. I told them that I was a Canadian Citizen, that I did not want to be a US citizen, and that I knew I was relinquishing my US citizenship by my action.
*I share the same situation as Susan. Born in the US to Canadian parents and returning to Canada as a young baby. I do not trust that our government will go to bat for us as I have not had satisfactory responses from any of the politicians. I was considering trying to relinquish this fall so that I could get my life back. Now I am concerned that my reasons for relinquishing will not be enough. I worked for a Canadian federal government research organization and made an Oath of fidelity and secrecy in 1976. Is this not an expatriating act? What are the special rules regarding a dual citizen by birth?
@Diane, if you have been a Canadian citizen since birth, have not lived in the US for more than 10 of the last 15 years, and are tax compliant for the last five years, you will be exempt from the so called “exit tax”.
*Dianne What exactly are you concerned about? The US is not interested in you. They have bigger fish to fry. They cannot reach you. They don’t know about you unless you make the mistake of telling them that you exist.
FATCA won’t affect you. Tell your bank, if they ask, which they won’t, that you are Canadian and only Canadian.
There is only 1 possible issue. When you travel to the states on your Canadian passport, a border guy might say ‘You could be American’ or even ‘You are American’ In that case you simply state ” I came back to Canada as a baby and never did anything as other than Canadian.’ That’s an awkward sentence but you know what I mean.
If they make a big deal about it then you have to make a choice but in the meantime you don’t have to do a thing
To provide more information……I have been a public servant since 2001. Also I have never had a US passport or used ANY US service other than hospitals when I was born etc. I’ve never worked in the US, never votes, never even had a SS number. So I am sure you can all understand why I am extremely frustrated as to why the US thinks they can ask me to file tax returns and provide them my banking information. Indignant is not a strong enough word.
So my plan until now has been to stay “under the radar”. But honestly I’m scared. Although I travel with a Canadian passport it does list my place of birth. I fear that a pissy border guard might decide to make my life miserable the next time I cross the border.
I simply want this all to go away. I never asked to be American. I never minded being American. I kind of liked being “different” than other people I knew. But THIS makes it so not worth it. I want out. But I want out without having to go through crap. I don’t think I should file tax and banking forms. I don’t think I should pay a fee. I think this is all bologna. I guess I keep hoping the US economy will improve and the government will back off of “expatriates”.
🙁
*I have not lived in the US other than my first few weeks of life. I have not association with the US – no SSN, passport, etc. I am not tax compliant for the last 5 years because I do not feel that I owe them a cent. In my opinion I have been only a Canadian since I became an adult.
*@Chester I am concerned that I may have blown my cover. I decided recently that I should take a shot at relinquishing and contacted the US consulate in Toronto to send me the forms. I do not have an appoinment booked but they do know my name and where I live. Given some of the comments tonight I am now worried that my arguements for expatriating are not sufficient.
@Susan I absolutely feel the same way. This is an unbelievable situation! I have been referring to it as economic terrorism!
*Susan and Dianne. Please relay your stories to Mr Flaherty the minister of finance and to Mr. John Weston MP who has this file under his wing. We need to keep up the pressure. The NDP has been far more responsive so far. Good luck- don’t let the b*****s get you down and don’t do anything to bring yourselves to their attention.
See Monty Python’s take on this.
Thank you for making my night more enjoyable!!
I crossed the border with my Canadian passport and US birthplace, the border guard told me I was an American, I told him that I was Canadian! Nothing more was said and I was allowed to cross, no big deal really and I did not think much about it. It was a few months after that trip that I saw the story in my local paper about taxes. This story plus being told I was an American was when the worry and not sleeping started. I soon called my MP’s office, they knew of the situation, and e-mailed me a fact sheet while I was still on the phone with them. The fact sheet said Canada will not collect taxes or fines. Because they had a statement ready to email at a moments notice told me that at the very least the government was aware of the problem and must be getting lots of calls. I feel now that Canada is on my side. Like Diane and Susan I have been in Canada since I was a child, have no SS number never filed taxes, or had anything at all to do with the US. I second what Chester 12 said, don’t file taxes, that to me is like saying you think you are still a citizen. If and when I do will be after I have a CLN. I also don’t think I owe anything in terms of money or paperwork.
@Diane, don’t worry I do not think any information is sent to the IRS until after the CLN is approved by the DOS.
@Dianne and Susan
Please, please do nothing regarding filing U.S. taxes. As stated above there is every chance that absolutely nothing will happen regarding taxes or probably not when crossing the border either.
I was born in the US and first came to Canada as an 18 year old University student. After marrying a Canadian in 1964, I eventually became a Canadian citizen in 1972. That was my expatriating act that entitles me to ‘relinquishment’. (My Canadian citizenship oath actually had me swear a renunciatory oath giving up allegiance to any foreign state or sovereign. Two weeks ago I crossed the border with my Canadian passport, identifying my place of birth in the U.S. Absolutely nothing was said by the border guard.
Eventually it might come to pass that you may have to formally renounce or relinquish your U.S. citizenship. For now, please do nothing in the way of filing tax forms. Read as much as you can on this site and others. There are special rules regarding ‘dual’ at birth citizens.