Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@truenorth – I was born in Canada, why would I travel on a US passport to the US when that would only cause questions? Would it not be safer to just appear Canadian?
I seem to be in the minority on this question. I would travel on the US passport if I were in your shoes because I think I would get caught. If you have US citizenship by a parent and a Canadian birthplace on a Canadian passport, and if a US parent did not register the birth in the US all would be fine. In your case you said you have a US passport. Your full name and birthday on the Canadian passport will match the name and birthday of a known US citizen, I’m sure it would take the computer about a second to come up with the match, I don’t know what information is available at the border but I would suspect the picture from your US passport has been digitized and in the computer system as well. Now the questions might get harder if they think you were trying to hide your US identity.
When I renounced, they disappeared behind the glass for a long time with my Canadian passport and other documents – I’ve wondered since whether they were creating their own data linked to my Canadian passport #.
Now, that could be more helpful than sinister, potentially, if it establishes at the border that I’m no longer a USC, and don’t have to use a US passport (or carry a CLN around – they’re not designed as portable ID.) We’ll see.
I’ve only recently returned to Canada, my native country, but I came back with more baggage than I bargained for (US citizenship and all its burdens). I am thinking of shedding this extra baggage, but I am unclear about what would happent to retirement/bank accounts still south of the 49th parallel. Should I empty these out before I renounce? Or can I just leave them and access them during retirement as a non-citizen?
Thought that I would write and share my experience…
I went to the US Consulate (Toronto) today to relinquish my U.S. citizenship. I became a Canadian citizen in 1978, never held a U.S. passport, have no American ties except for family and some friends I keep in contact.
I was informed at the end of my interview and after signing DS 4079 and one other form (DS 4083?) that my CLN would be backdated to the day I took out my Canadian citizenship in 1978, and that I should expect to receive the certificate in 2-3 months.
While I am here, I want to take this opportunity to say a big THANK YOU to all of the contributors to the IBS. This site has been an incredible wealth of information to me and provided me with all of the information I needed to confidently arrange for my formal relinquishment of U.S. citizenship.
I will write again to confirm the receipt of my CLN.
Bushwhacker
Sincere congratulations to you, bushwhacker!! Thanks for announcing your relinquishment of US citizenship at the Toronto US Consulate today and letting us know that you were told to expect to receive your CLN in 2 – 3 months.
Thanks also for another validation of what we are collectively doing at the Isaac Brock Society site. We’ll look forward to you reporting that you have successfully received your CLN a short while from now. In the meantime, please join us in discussion from time to time. I’m sure your experience will help others.
Bravo!
Congratulations, Bushwacker! It must feel great tonight to know that your life is back in order! Enjoy! Thanks for sharing the story of your visit and I’ll add it to the Consulate Report Directory tomorrow.
Wow! That is encouraging Bushwacker! I am assuming that because your CLN was backdated you did not need to file tax returns. What kind of information did you need to bring to the appointment? I am considering trying to do the same when I am in Montreal this fall. Has anyone had any experience at the consulate there?
@bushwacker
Having ‘relinquished’ so long ago (1978), is it safe to say that you have not in fact brought up to date any tax filings. Or do you plan on filing tax forms and FBARs?
I ask as I am a 1972 ‘relinquisher’, but have not yet booked an appointment with a consulate.
@tiger
If it is really possible to obtain a backdated CLN I find it hard to see how someone would have to file five years of back FBARs and returns. However, I do not expect to see that officially confirmed anywhere for quite some time. I would still be very cautious of filing back returns in the circumstance of a relinquishment.
@Tim
I agree. If the date of the ‘relinquishment’ is backdated, it makes no sense that anyone would be obligated to file tax returns of the ‘present time’. However, nothing they do makes any sense. I believe that the IRS simply believes they are entitled to their own rules.
@ Em, Blaze & caledoniacid
Thank you for the reassurance. Since I have so few contacts left in the USA, when I started to feel uncomfortable about what was happening, I simply asked myself what should be the easiest solution, and I decided to expatriate. In preparation, I divested myself of all my US investments over a two year period so as not to incur a tax burden, and once I was down to practically nothing, I applied to renounce my citizenship.
I am not sure what an OVDP is, but if my memory isn’t playing tricks on me, my extremely expensive Paris tax consultants warned me against getting into that (so maybe they weren’t all that overpriced, after all). In any event, I had arbitrarily decided that since I live in France, any funds I hold in France couldn’t possibly be considered “overseas.” Based on residence, any overseas funds I have are in the US, and the IRS already knows about those. I have been FBARed up one side and FATCAd down the other and generously lathered with 8938s. However, I only paid for advice before renouncing and in a moment of delirium decided that any American worth her salt ought to be able to fill out her own tax forms, so I did.
As a comic sidebar to all this, I came across a photograph of my parents on the Internet. I sent an inquiry to the site manager asking why my parents were on this site, and he informed me that my forefather, a Lovett, had fought in the Revolutionary War and I was eligible to become a Daughter of the Republic. He also said that we were cousins and reminded me that our common ancestor had actually gone to war over the question of taxation without representation. Since I had just renounced my citizenship, I decided to let the matter slide. Nonetheless, when I think of the +/- 6.3 million Americans living abroad, who are neither counted in any Census Bureau survey, nor are they represented in the Congress when questions of taxation are raised…well, it makes me want to go to war!
kcnilg Terrific story. I love the bit about foreign accounts being the ones in the USA.
My significant other is a 7th generation Canadian. One of his ancestors was on the rebel side fighting for a Connecticut regiment out of New London. He thought of becoming a Son of the American Revolution just to piss off my arriveste American relatives but there were too many forms to fill out to prove his case!
The Revolution was a very bitter civil war, something the later mythology glosses over. I had ancestors on both sides. The Loyalist one was a Scottish migrant to Virginia who ended up as a staff officer with one of the British generals, I think Burgoyne. He was captured by the rebels, escaped, was recaptured and sent to French custody. The French shipped him to Normandy, where he was kept in solitary confinement and darkness until the end of the war, which was another year or two. Apparently he came out very damaged, and among other things couldn’t stand to be in a room with the door closed for the rest of his life.
If I relinquish and get a backdated CLN is it still important to get rid of any US equities?
@Diane: I don’t feel qualified to answer your question. I personally have no US investments. Petros usually has simple advice: “Get your ass and your assets out of US!” Perhaps he or someone else could advise you better than I could.
KC: Thanks for sharing your story. It is devastating what has happened to you, to us and to a once great country. The US now stands with only Eritrea as a nation which tries to hold anyone born there to a life of servitude. Of course, they also try to hold our children born elsewhere and now even our spouses hostage to their financial demands.
As you may have read, some of us relinquished three, four, five or even six decades ago by becoming citizens of other countries. DOS and Consulates were firm and clear that we were “permanently and irrevocably” terminating US citizenship. Now that we are in or nearing retirement, IRS wants to reclaim us and our money.
There is another thread of experiences at Consulates. Your experience in Paris would be a welcome addition. http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
OVDP is the Overseas Voluntary Disclosure Program. It is a nightmare, as Just Me and others well know. You accountant gave you good advice to stay away from it.
Don Pomodoro is also Belgian. He was born in US to Belgian parents who were studying there. His life has been turned upside down by this issue. You might want to check out some of his posts.
You are correct in that these issues are the very ones the Revolutionary War was fought over and the US was founded. I rewrote the Declaration of Independence a few months ago. It was mind-blowing how few changes were needed to make it relevant to our situation today. Here’s a link. http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
Now that you have signed your own Declaration of Independence by renouncing, I hope you will stay with us here at Brock.
Dianne, Depends. Your US equities are not a problem while you are alive. You would fill in a form with your broker stating your citizenship (non-American) The US company withholds 15% of any dividend at source. For your non US taxes, you would normally get a credit for taxes withheld against your foreign(US) income.
However US assets greater than $60,000. ,including stocks, are a problem for an executor of your estate
In theory, they are US situs assets and the IRS expects an estate tax return to be filed. There is a large exemption, so that tax is unlikely to be owed. However the filing paperwork is onerous and intrusive. many minnows would ignore it. If the executor has US connections, for example a large trust company, they would want to be onside. The solution is to not have US assets more than 60,000 when you finish the back nine.
@caledoniacid Thanks so much for the information. I would be up the creek without a paddle if not for this blog!
@ kcnileg
I can totally relate to being muddled by the Ameri-centric IRS terminology. Would it kill them to put together an information package for people outside the USA which doesn’t refer to our bank accounts as being “overseas” or “foreign” for instance? First of all I live next door to the USA in Canada and if there’s a sea running along the 49th parallel I haven’t seen it and furthermore our bank accounts are local, not foreign. It’s my husband’s one small, no interest, chequing account in the USA which is foreign to us. And then there’s the absolute absurdity of them calling me a US person (for tax purposes) when I am anything but that from my perspective. I’m just someone who didn’t properly dispose of an old, what I believed to be, expired green card and who always thought of herself (and even declared it with a note attached to our 1040s each year) to be, in their terminology, a former resident alien and therefore not obliged to fill out FBARs and now 8938s. Sometimes I get the impression that Americans think the entire universe revolves around them — well at the IRS at least — our friends and family across the 49th parallel are salt of the earth and certainly don’t have that attitude. My husband is down there right now and to the few people he’s tried to explain this whole FATCA fiasco to he’s simply been met with incredulity (they just didn’t know) and then sympathy.
@Em. Incredulity, then horror and sympathy, is also what my wife and I have met when we’ve explained the situation to family and our few remaining friends in the US (after 40+ years of being Canadian almost all our former US friendships have fallen by the wayside). The problem is that US media either are ignoring the issue or are covering it from a very biased, hostile and blinkered perspective (as US media tend to cover almost everything these days). So unless someone in the US has family members living in another country (I agree, let’s stop using “overseas” and “foreign”, the US is foreign not to mention alien to most of us, and they’re not overseas except for the state of Hawaii), they aren’t going to get exposed to our side of the story. No one I’ve encountered yet has difficulty with the concept that the IRS is a bullying, uncomprehending and incomprehensible monster, though … speak to any famiy farmer or small business person in the US about the IRS, if you are prepared for an hour or more rant of horror stories. The IRS isn’t a very popular organization among many Americans, at least not the ones I’ve ever met.
@ schubert1975
It doesn’t help that this is a complex issue with more permutations and combinations of US “personhood” and tax reporting obligations than I care to fathom. When you try to explain it to someone you have to take a deep breath and gird yourself for a long conversation or in some cases hope that whomever you are talking to has the attention span of something more evolved than an amoeba. Then you have to be a bit guarded about what information you reveal about your own particular situation. For my own sake of privacy I try to avoid specific numbers relating to our taxes, for example. I’m very much aware that anything and everything you offer up in any form on the internet is out there forever, although when I get my dander up about something I often throw caution to the wind. Believe me, my dander is up about this issue. It’s about freedom and fairness to me — things I attach more importance to than finances. We won’t be able to find help for ourselves or help someone else along the way if we hold back too much. I really feel IBS is the source of the solutions we are all seeking and once again I have to stop and say to myself how lucky to have found my way here.
@calgary411, pacifica777
Thank you for the congratulatory notes! I am happy to share this information in the interest of helping others in the same situation. While I was waiting in line at the Consulate, I had encountered others who were also in the process of relinquishing/renouncing. Some I felt were not fully informed about their tax/reporting obligations (or the need NOT to report, e.g. voluntary disclosure program). I was quietly passing the word around to others who said they had friends/family also looking to relinquish/renounce, to check out the Isaac Brock Society before they did anything else.
@Dianne
Here’s what I brought along with me: I had written to Canada Immigration and obtained a copy of my citizenship file, which included the oath I had sworn to (which was dated and signed by me). This oath was attached to form DS-4079 REQUEST FOR DETERMINATION OF POSSIBLE LOSS OF UNITED STATES CITIZENSHIP which I had downloaded and filled out as completely as possible, with dates as to when I arrived in Canada, etc. Google the form name for a copy. I also had a copy of another oath to which I had sworn since I had also worked at a government position. Also brought along my Canadian passport, Canadian citizenship card, US birth certificate, and current drivers license (for current photo ID). If you have all of your ducks in order, the process should go fairly quickly. From the information posted here by others, I was confident that I would be able to eventually obtain a backdated CLN. You can’t imagine the relief when the Consulate Officer confirmed that my CLN would be backdated. And, no, I did not file any tax returns. As others here have pointed out, filing such forms would only had given US officials an indication that I was attempting to reclaim my US citizenship status and placed me on the IRS radar screen. I felt that if I could get my CLN backdated to 1978, then I shouldn’t be subject to any US tax reporting requirements that may have been enacted since that time. Believe me, I have nothing to hide anyway, nor am I a big fish. If your circumstances are similar to mine, then I would believe that your relinquishment should be straight-forward. Good luck to you!
bushwhacker
@bushwhacker
Again, congratulations. Happy to hear that you did not file any tax forms, nor that you plan on filing any tax forms.I totally agree that having ‘relinquished’ decades ago, how could there possibly be an obligation to file current tax forms.
It will be great if they can produce the CLN in two to three months. Keep us posted.
I was born in Canada to US citizen parents: thus I was born a Canadian-US dual citizen. I have resided in Canada for many years. I have complied with all US and Canadian tax laws, including filling my FBARs and, for my 2011 taxes, the new Form 8893. (My total bank accounts, investment accounts, and RRSPs come to about $700K.) On May 17, I renounced my US citizenship.
Maybe someone here knows about US filing obligations for renunciants. I understand that, for 2012, I must file Form 1040NR, with Form 1040 up to May 14 filed as a schedule; I must also file Form 8854 along with these (though I am not a covered expatriate). Here are my questions: (1) Must I file Form 8893 for 2012? if yes, must I include specified assets acquired after renunciation? (2) Must I file an FBAR for 2012? If yes, must my FBAR include any accounts opened after renunciation? (3) If I open a grantor trust (such as a Canadian Tax-Free Savings Account) after renunciation, must I file Form 3520? Thanks. (4) If I acquire shares on a PFIC after renunciation, must I file Form 8621?
@Michael Lalonde
For 2012, file 8893 and FBAR up to May 17. No need to provide any information on anything you do following that date (TFSA, PFIC, etc), you are no longer a US citizen 🙂 You need to send a copy of 8854 to the IRS office in Philadelphia as well as with your 1040nr/1040. None of it is due til June 15 of next year, by then you should have your CLN anyway.
Read the instructions again. Since you were dual at birth. The only condition you need to fulfill to not be covered is to state you were compliant for the previous 5 years.
This is from IRS bulletin 2009-45 Guidance for expatriates Section 8B
B. Income tax returns
‘Initial filing obligations for the year of expatriation. A covered expatriate must file a dual-status return if he or she was a U.S. citizen or long-term resident for only part of the taxable year that includes the day before the expatriation date. A dual-status return requires the covered expatriate to file a Form 1040NR with a Form 1040 attached as a schedule. See Treas. Reg. § 1.6012-1(b)(2)(ii)(b), Treas. Reg. § 1.871-13, and chapter 6 of IRS Publication 519 for the requirements for filing a dual-status return. If the covered expatriate’s expatriation date is January 1, then he or she will not be required to file a dual-status return.’
Note This applies to covered expatriates. You are not a covered expatriate. Presto. No 1040, no 1040NR, No 8938. Nada