Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  2. It was before 1986, both my parents were Canadian, I was Canadian at birth. I became a US citizen by birth in the United States.

  3. Thanks True North. That explains why you can’t relinquish. You didn’t commit an expatriating act to become a Canadian citizen.

  4. @Schubert
    I agree with you. Although, I do not have a CLN in my possession, the very fact that I ‘renounced’ allegiance to any foreign sovereign or state as part of my Canadian citizenship oath, is the next best thing to the CLN. I would have absolutely no trouble stating that I am not a US citizen. There is no perjury in that statement.

  5. @True North – you were lucky. I saw, that as well, and sent in the request under privacy, and they responded in less than a month – BUT with a letter saying they didn’t have the information, and including the form to fill out under the information part of it. I wrote a new letter, with the $5cheque, just a few days ago, so we’ll seehow long it takes.

  6. @TrueNorth,

    You may want to ask about the status of your CLN and you may need to do it a couple of times to break the bureaucratic log jam.

    It’s not in Uncle Sam’s interest to give too many of these things out. So foot dragging may be built into the program, hoping people will change their minds before the fat lady sings.

  7. @All

    I’d appreciate your comments re: my summary of renouncement. If there is a better place to post this then please advise. This is all in context of being a long-time Canadian / Canadian citizen who had the unfortunate experience of being born in the US many years ago.

    With thanks to the many contributors to Isaac, I now understand and agree that absent any new information, all paths lead to two high-level outcomes, namely “complain and comply”, or “renounce”. These two outcomes assume that “Do Nothing” is not a viable long-term option owing to the US desire and trajectory of inventing diabolical ways to invade the privacy of Canadian citizens and seize their assets.

    In researching the “renounce” path, it strikes me that there is the option to “Renounce and Comply” (i.e. renounce and file 5 years of FBARs, tax returns et al) or “Renounce and Avoid” (i.e. renounce and don’t travel to the US).

    In both cases:
    1. You should assume that you are now glowing brightly on the IRS Radar
    2. Your US Tax obligations (e.g. filing returns, Estate Tax, etc.) stop immediately
    3. The US Statute of Limitations Clock starts to tick
    4. Once you get a CLN you can prove to your government and your FIs that you are *not* a US person

    “Renounce and Comply” means:
    1. There is a cost (estimated $1K-$2K per return) of having 5 years of tax returns and FBARs prepared by lawyers ($) and/or CPAs ($)
    2. There could be FBAR fines ($10K per account per year)
    3. If you were not a Dual Citizen at birth, there may be an Exit Tax based upon the pretend sale of all of your assets
    4. If you in or near retirement, you most likely will be subject to the Exit Tax which could devastate your retirement savings. (e.g. 30 years retirement income at the poverty level gets you to the $600K brass ring)
    5. Once you get your CLN there is a low risk associated with travel to the US

    “Renounce and Avoid” means:
    1. There is no cost to prepare tax returns and FBARs
    2. There is no Exit Tax
    3. There is a high risk associated with travel to the US. Specifically you would be considered really dumb to cross the border or really unfortunate if you were forced into the US by some calamity in the air or on the water. But that could happen.

    In summary for some of us, the decision is about weighing the costs against the ability to travel to the US.

  8. @CanadianPat
    If as you say, you ‘are a long-time Canadian citizen’, AND the ‘preponderance of evidence’ since you became a Canadian indicates that you have done nothing to show otherwise (ie you have never voted in the U.S., never applied for a U.S. passport, never filed U.S. tax returns), then you should MOST DEFINITELY not renounce because you are then eligible to apply for a CLN as a ‘relinquisher’.
    There are many of us on this site, who became Canadians decades ago, who have either already applied for CLNs at consulates around Canada or plan to do so.Once the DOS issues you the CLN, they will also notify the IRS. However, as shown in many places on this site, the CLN will be dated as of the date of your expatriating act (when you became a Canadian). So at that point, you can decide as some here have decided to ‘thumb their noses’ at the IRS, or you could decide at that point to file the five years of tax returns and FBARs.
    There was a post earlier today, under “Certificate of Loss of Nationality”, posted by Baird with an email from the Toronto consulate stating the CLN had the date of 1969 on it.

  9. Why would you bother to do anything at all? Forget about the whole thing and move on with your life.

    If you decide you must do something, relinquish if you can. Renouncing presupposes that you are American which you may well not be.

  10. @Canadian Pat
    1. Your bright burning star on the IRS radar will be lost in the Galaxy of brighter stars.
    2. If you renounce and make the mistake of being a ‘covered expatriate, your filing requirements don’t stop.
    3. The high risk of travelling to the Us is a myth. They can’t arrest you without a warrant. There have been literally 1 or 2 people turned away at airports and the most famous one Boris Johnson was turned away by an overzealous airline employee.

    4. You don’t need to prove to anyone,that you are not a US person. Our gov’t doesn’t care and a Canadian FI has no business asking.

  11. Chester12 is on the right track. The binary is (1) Never enter the US again (2) Go through the bureaucratic hell of comply-and-renounce to retain the possibility of entering the US — with the understanding that you may be refused entry at whim. Current US policy and practice will make it ever clearer that that the Statue of Liberty waves at a growing community of exiles.

  13. Tiger, Chester12, usxcanada, schubert1975:

    Thanks very much for your help. Your comments are meaningful to me and my situation. I hope that at some point I can contribute to Isaac to help others as you have helped me.

    Re: “Why do anything at all?”

    I realize this is an option. In fact “do nothing” is my short-term plan while I monitor the situation through 2012 and possibly beyond.

    From a “country” perspective which includes Canadian sovereignty, privacy and the plight of thousands of Canadians trapped in this hairball, for me “do nothing” is not an option. For now that means participating with Isaac, and corresponding with Canadian politicians and others who might have helpful information that I can pass along if warranted.

    Thanks again!

  14. @CanadianPat
    One more thing to mention to you is that earlier in this year we had quite alot of input here from a former (for 30 years) IRS vet. In fact, he blogged under that name – 30 year IRS Vet. His name is Steven Mopsick, an American tax lawyer. Steven said, more than once, that for those of us who had had no contact with the IRS for years and years, we would be foolish to start to file income tax returns. I think his exact words were if we suddenly started throwing tax returns at the IRS, their words would be ‘come on, make my day’.
    I am certainly going to remember his words.

  15. Yes. Especially Steven’s recent comment that I would not have found without Chester12 pointing me to it (via another thread)…

    “The whole issue of the IRS chasing after Canadians through treaties and foreign litigation is a red herring which is not going to happen. The IRS has enough trouble going after all the low hanging fruit it has in front of its nose inside the United States to even think of expending valuable resources on dubious, expensive, divisive and unseemly extra-territorial collection of routine penalties or tax outside the borders of the fifty States, the District of Columbia, or maybe American Somoa or Puerto Rico!”.

  16. @Canadian Pat : the high risk of going to the states is probably exagerrated. With a CLN in hand, they can’t argue that you must travel on a US passport; at present, the tax fine for failing to file 8854 is $10,000. That is not going to get anyone arrested at the border. But not going back to state means only this: that nothing that could go wrong in a visit to the states will ever go wrong, not that there is much risk that anything could go wrong.

    I am a ringleader and I have publicly stated that I will not file FBARs. I am at the greatest risk of anyone here. But I don’t know why they would arrest lovable me at the border in nice little touristic visit. Going back to live on the other hand is a no no–unless you have a proper visa.

  17. @ Canadian Pat : my neighbor’s family was driving in the US, got in a big car accident. The heli-evacuated two members at a cost of $30,000 each. His son’s stay in hospital was $140,000 (ten days); his father-in-law had no insurance coverage. Guess what? the biggest risk going to the states for us is not getting arrested at the border or something like that: it’s getting (1) into serious health problems that requires the use of the health care system, or (2) being in the wrong place at the wrong time and becoming a victim of a crime.

  20. @Petros
    I continue to find your posts and comments most helpful.

    I need to review your relinquish-if-you-can-post. I think that I’ve made some incorrect assumptions along the way that I need to correct.

    I had not thought about the car accident scenario but it does make a lot of sense when considering risks.

    Re: “I am a ringleader and I have publicly stated that I will not file FBARs. I am at the greatest risk of anyone here.”

    I understand. However we really need you to stick around here. Please remember Isaac Brock led his troops into battle wearing a bright red coat that made him an easy target. Probably not the best tactics and wardrobe choice in hindsight. I’d like to see you be more like Tecumseh, a great leader but perhaps more guerilla than Brock. I think most appropriate, Tecumseh helped capture Fort Detroit (home of the FBAR).

  21. @CanadianPat, and @Petros:
    I second the point about red coats. See also, the British and visibility in the ‘War of Independence’.

  23. Perhaps this is a good time to drop a hint, for those dedicated souls who follow this thread, and who either have filed or are thinking about filing for a CLN, renounce or relinquish:

    The Brock Society’s companion and password-protected Forum (see link near right-hand top of home page) has a thread on renouncing and relinquishing, among other topics. There are some interesting posts there with useful information, placed by Society members who for various reasons may not feel comfortable placing those posts on a wide-open public forum such as the one you are now reading. I find it very helpful to check that forum board every few days for new posts; the main directory lists the date, time, and subject of the most recent post on each thread, which makes this quite easy. You can also subscribe to get an email notification of additions to one or more specific threads.

    The forum also has a feature that allows you to communicate via private email (through the forum site, without disclosing your email address) with other persons who have registered with the forum.

  24. Question: Has anyone heard about after renouncing if can enter USA as tourist with passport under visa waiver program??? Someone told me that after renouncing cannot enter under visa waiver even if have passport from one of the 36 participating countries.Instead renouncess are treated differently and need to apply for a visa at a consulate.

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: