Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Hippocampe You are asking something that no one except the State Department and you yourself can answer. If you expatriated in your own thinking, you had the right to do it. No one can take that right away from you. It is a fundamental right. If the IRS tells you that you have to file taxes, then turn the burden of proof on them and say, “Prove I am a US citizen.” What can they do to you in that case? The CRA isn’t going to do anything. Filing the taxes probably would have been required even if you were a Canadian only, so I don’t see how that makes one bit of difference. Most of the rest of the time you haven’t filed taxes.
Pingback: My response on Jack Townsend’s Open Forum Comments to Congress and IRS Regarding Tax Administration for Offshore Accounts (4/9/12) | The Isaac Brock Society
Just a quick note. Just to be sure about signing a renunciation when we became citizens of Canada back in 1973, I applied under the Canadian FOIA for documentation regarding my citizenship process on Dec 16th 2011. The application says they guarantee a reaponse in 30 working days. The paperwork arrived today (April18 2012.)
Must be a great department to work in if they only put in 30 days between Dec 16 and April 18!
Of the nine pages they sent to me three are totally illegible and two are mostly so. Four can be read to some degree to get the sense of what’s on the page. One page does have the complete Oath of Citizenship from Nov 1973 but, as I thought, no renunciation of US citizenship as it was past the April date when that was stopped – although we had been told when we applied that we would have to make that renunciation.
Just barely worth the $5 it cost but fun to have anyway.
@johnnb
Both Blaze and I received our citizenship files just past the 30 day timeline. We both applied through “Access to Information and Privacy”; we both wrote letters rather than use the very complicated online application form. In both cases, our files contained a signed copy of our renunciatory oath. In my case, I became a citizen Oct. 26, 1972 so prior to the removal of the renunciatory part of the oath (April 2, 1973). What was interesting for Blaze was the fact that although her citizenship dates to late April, 1973, the citizenship court where she became a citizen of Canada was obviously still using the old form.
In fairness to the Government of Canada workers, I must mention that I had left a message at their office in Ottawa because I did not understand the form. I was phoned by the Ottawa office at 5:30 P.S.T. in response to my message. That was 8:30 EST. I commented on the lateness of the call and was told that working that late was quite common as they were short staffed. He also said that it was difficult to maintain the 30 day response time. When I did get such a prompt response (almost within the 30 days), I phoned the Ottawa office to thank them.
I wonder why the application – which is the official route to go – did not get the same quick response as the letter. Very strange.
I envy both you and Blaze having the renunciations as part of your oath.
johnb: Tiger is absolutely correct. We both received them quickly. We both submitted by letter rather than through the on line form.
I was surprised my oath included this: “i hereby renounce all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign sovereign or state of whom or of which I may at this time be a subject or citizen.
Like yours, mine is barely legible. I understand this is because it was stored on microfiche. But, it’s clear enough that the renunciation can be read, along with the date (April 27, 1973), along with my signature and the witness signature of a Citizenship Canada official. I don’t know how any Canadian financial institution could refuse to accept that as confirmation that I have not been a “U.S. person for four decades.
I have been told it was April 2, 1973 that Canada stopped formally requiring that oath, but I signed it on April 27, 1973 with the full intent of renouncing US citizenship.
I think that renunciation oath was also in Schubert’s wife’s citizenship file and I believe hers was from 1975. Perhaps Schubert can confirm whether that is correct.
So, I don’t know how long after April 2 some locations were still using that form. I clearly remember the citizenship judge telling me I needed to meet with someone to renounce my US citizenship. I also remember that official going over that statement with me and ensuring I understood what it meant.
The canadian financial inst. might ask ‘are you by any chance American?’ Answer ‘no’ END OF
@Chester12
Let us hope the question is not phrased ‘were you by any chance born in the United States?’
@Blaze. My wife became Canadian citizen in 1977 (it was I who became Canadian in 1975). We got her file from an ATI request, and she did not swear a renunciation oath at that time (four years after Canada stopped requiring that). Nor do I recall swearing such an oath at my citizenship ceremony, though I haven’t pulled my file (and don’t need it as I have a CLN from back then anyway). I think it’s unlikely that anyone will find a renunciation oath in a citizenship file dating much later than April 1973, though you never know your luck … and for $5 it’s worth a peek at the file.
@Tiger. They can’t ask where you were born, that would be a clear violation of Article 15 of the Charter (which prohibits discrimination on the basis of national origin, though not on the basis of citizenship though citizenship discrimination is I think prohibited in the Ontario Human Rights Code). In any case US birth is irrelevant, what’s relevant under the IRS code and FATCA is citizenship or green-card possession, the definition of “US person” is based on those two things and NOT on birthplace. As we know people can renounce or relinquish their US citizenship no matter where they were born, in which case they are NOT US persons and not subject to US taxation or FATCA.
Where you were born is none of the financial institution’s damn business, ditto where your parents were born (this may be relevant to some folks visiting this forum). Nor as far as I know can they require you to show them a passport or a birth certificate when applying for an account or for any other reason, at least under current legislation in Canada. All they can require AFAIK is a photo ID and documentation of your address, both of which they can get from a driver’s license (which says nothing about your or your parent’s place of birth).
All they can legally ask you, as for now, is whether you are a US citizen yes/no (they can and usually will also ask about Canadian citizenship). If you answer “no,” and sign your name, you may or may not be guilty of “uttering a false document” but the burden would be on them or someone else to prove that. And in particular, for any US-born person who became a citizen of another country prior to 1986 regardless of volition or intent (I believe it wasn’t until then that Section 349 was amended to include those word; prior to amendment those words weren’t even there), or after 1986 with volition and intent to relinquish, there is a legal argument that you have excellent reasons to believe you are no longer a US citizen and you and they can have fun arguing your answer in front of a judge (a Canadian one, it would have to be at least while you’re on Canadian soil), if they or anyone else wants to pursue the issue in court … At least that’s my interpretation (I’m not a lawyer though) — Certainly if or once you have a CLN, the banks and FATCA can go fish (I’m being very polite, for me).
@Schubert: Thanks for clearing up the misinformation I gave about your wife’s citizenship information.
I am a Canadian, Here is my citizenship certificate, Go take a hike if you do not want me as a customer.
@Schubert
And thank you for that info about ‘asking where you were born’.
Back in January, my financial advisor, (who knows I was born in the U.S.), sent me by email a document that RBC Dominion Securities put out regarding FATCA. The opening paragraph goes into “Are You a U.S. Citizen”. The first statement following the title states: “If You were born in the U.S., you ARE a U.S. citizen”. Every time I read that, I want to scream. I have not as yet had the time to meet with my financial advisor (that is planned for June), but when I do, my intention is to tell her the opening statement is not true. What it should read is: “If you were born in the U.S., you MAY BE a U.S. citizen”. So one of Canada’s ‘big five’ retail banks has their legal and comliance department giving inaccurate information and info that is scary!
Just wanted to thank everyone here for all the information. I just booked the first meeting with the consulate to renounce. After reading others experiences I am reminded of that quote “a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step”. I feel somehow better having taken that first step.
@EscapeArtist: Have a fabulous escape!
schubert1975 – Isn’t the gist of your many words that there are two options for US persons resident in Canada? (1) Stand up for your “rights,” provide no useful information to the financial institution, and be deemed recalcitrant. (2) Commit perjury on the basis of a come-and-get-me-if-you-can attitude.
Further comment on the question “are you a US citizen?”
My non-lawyer opinion would be that the correct and legally defensible answer to that question is also a resounding NO if you have sworn an oath of renunciation of your previous/US nationality, whether at a pre-April-1973 Canadian citizenship ceremony OR in front of a US consular officer. Regardless of whether the State Department has issued you a CLN, whether because you never applied for one, or did apply and it’s still in the bureaucratic mill somewhere.
My recollection of the last time I saw the Canada-US extradition treaty, and my knowledge of a legal case back in the 1980s involving someone I know, is that the only tax-related offense that can get you extradited in either direction across the border is fraud or uttering a false document. Extradition cases require an application for extradition by the other country, and a court hearing IN CANADA (in this case) before a CANADIAN judge in a CANADIAN court, to hear arguments about the extradition warrant, at which time you or your lawyer have an opportunity to argue against extradition. I cannot believe that any Canadian judge would rule there was anything false or misleading about a “NO” answer to that question, if you’ve sworn any kind of renunciation oath, whether or not you got a CLN.
Canadian banks operating in Canada are governed by Canadian, not US, law, and I think you’d have excellent grounds for a civil lawsuit against any Canadian bank that refused to open an account for you, closed an existing account, or reported any account information to the IRS, if you tell them you’re not a US citizen and, if necessary and pressed on the matter, honestly tell them you’ve sworn a renunciation oath (my previous post above referred to relinquishment and I overlooked renunciation).
Thought I’d mention that, for those of you who have a copy of a renunciation oath you swore on becoming a Canadian, or who have renounced in front of a US consular official but don’t have your CLN if and when the bank asks the question.
Check with a lawyer if you’re uncertain of my street-legal interpretation of the situation, but I’d be very surprised if a lawyer will tell you otherwise.
@tiger
the first working day after I renounced, with a copy of my oath and Canadian passport, I opened an account at TD. TD told me they would not report any Canadian citizens to the IRS, period, point final!! Will close RBC account as soon as all government deposits show up at TD.
THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IF YOU ARE A CANADIAN CITIZEN AND DO NOT GO TO THE USA, THEY CANNOT TOUCH YOU AND THE CRA WILL NOT GO AFTER YOU EITHER.
@usxcanada
No I’m not advocating perjury or recalcitrance. I’m pointing out that anyone who has a solid relinquishment case, who has renounced, and/or who has a CLN or has an application sitting in the US bureaucracy somewhere, has a legitimate argument they are not a US citizen/person and the banks and FATCA have no business with that person. Perjury or recalcitrance have nothing to do with this. Such a person is NOT a US person IMO. Though the “cleanest” way of proving that is to have a CLN, no question.
Nor does refusing to waive your rights under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (specifically your right to protection from discrimination based on national origin/place of birth) or under our privacy and banking legislation, constitute recalcitrance or perjury.
If in doubt, check with a lawyer.
Somehow I think the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Universal Declaration of Rights and Freedoms is going to trump US IRS regulations. Imagine Canadian banks being asked to send all the bank records of immigrants or refugees from the USSR, Hungary, Eritrea, or China to these governments.There are also 700,000 of us here! As I said, Craig Scott is not goinng to stand by and see me deported to the USA.
@Joe
Right on.
@Rivka
Good to hear about TD. Let’s see what the other banks say; maybe we should start a separate thread on that, for people to report their experiences.
TD has been quite vocal and detailed in its objections to IRS going back nearly a year. Wonder how many account holders with other banks are going to switch to them.
There are also credit unions that aren’t going to be reporting, from what I’ve been told (by my own credit union, among others).
BTW there was an amendment signed to the Canada-US tax treaty in 2007, which does say the governments can’t refuse a request to provide banking information to each other IF the request pertains to a revenue claim that is not exempted under the treaty. Revenue claims against anyone who is or was a Canadian citizen at the time of the alleged revenue claim, OR claims from any period against any Canadian citizen who became one before November 1995, are exempted under the treaty. So TD’s position that they won’t report on Canadian citizens is perfectly consistent and compliant with the treaty WHICH BOTH GOVERNMENTS SIGNED. (That 2007 provision, as with most things in the treaty, is reciprocal and applies in both directions.)
@EsacpeArtist,
I found renuniciationguide.com very helpful for guiding me through my journey.
Good luck and God bless!
@rivka: That’s different information than I received from TD, from my credit union or from the Canadian Bankers Association. The general message I’m getting is that they’re still working on it.
They must have our permission to release anything to IRS. That has been clear from CBA and the banks. The question is what they will do if we do not give them consent. Will they close accounts? CBA couldn’t answer that part of the question, and their website indicates they will. They do say they’re continue to work to find a solution.
I agree with Joe. They have no right to ask us where we were born. If they begin asking all customers is they are US persons, I think banks will face a huge revolt –and not just among those of us who had the misfortune to be born in U.S. All of my friends (born in Canad or who were born in another country and immigrated here) have said they will not answer such a question as it has nothing whatsoever to do with their private financial matters.
For everyone who is a Canadian citizen, remember IRS draft regulations indicate there are alternatives to a CLN.http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/02/11/is-a-certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-really-necessary-new-fatca-regulations-are-in-gobbledygook/
According to this, it looks like a non-US passport or other proof of non-US citizenship plus a reasonable explanation of renunciation of US citizenship can be used if the banks do try to circumvent Canadian laws to ask if customers are US persons. If they do that, they know they will be in the midst of Canadian lawsuits..
We in Canada seem to be miles ahead of other countries where it is routine to ask for birth certificate to open an account. Canadian banks can only accept a Canadian birth certificate to open an account. They cannot accept a foreign birth certificate as identification. So, that’s a huge issue for Canadian banks.
Plus, CRA has made it clear they won’t collect taxes for IRS on Canadian citizens and won’t collect FBAR penalties on Canadian residents, whether citizens or not.
I also applied for my paperwork last fall, and it took just under 30 calendar days. I wonder if things are getting backed up now. I did not pay $5, I saw or thought I saw that your own personal information was exempt from the fee. At any rate I did not send a payment, and none was ever requested.
On the subject of the CLN and citizenship, I was told I am still a citizen while I wait for a year for the CLN to be processed, but that once I get it I will no longer be a citizen effective the day of my appointment. Somehow this extra year of citizenship will magically disappear once I hold the CLN in my own hand.