Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
No No No !!!!
if you haven’t done so, go to http://renunciationguide.com/
You can send in your 5 years worth before or after doesn’t really matter.
When you renounce there should be no mention of taxes except on the way out they might gently remind you.
Don’t wait to hear from the IRS. You might never hear from them.
The CLN should be independant of your dealings with the IRS
You can truthfully say you are compliant when you have made your best effort to be compliant.
On the 8854, since you were dual at birth you don’t need to worry about the net worth test for the exit tax.
OR you can forget the whole thing. Why bother? If hassled at the border, tell the truth -you were brought back as a baby and as far as you were concerned were a Canadian.
@escapeartist@chester
EscapeArtist may not be dual from birth. I was born to Canadian parents in the US as well and had to immigrate back into Canada. I was not considered dual. I had to apply to become Canadian. I think it depends on the year you were born and if you were registered as a Canadian.
I read the Renunciation guide. But I would like to know if it is fact, and all the information correct? The people renouncing US citizenship from Brock Society are they doing the samething i.e. not sending any tax info and 8854 like chester has posted?
@hippocampe- I don’t know where or why you got the impression that we are doing or advocating that anyone do those things but I can assure you that we are not. Chester is referring to the order in which things are done and not saying that those things do not have to be done.
We are not advocates of tax evasion.
@recalcitrantexpat-I understand, sorry . This is my question
I was born in the US and want to renounce citizenship (have canadian). If I make an appointment at the consulate and renounce. Can I file taxes at a later date? I would like to understand the process at the consulate. don’t want any surprises.
@hippocampe- No problem. I apologize if I misread what it was that you were actually asking. As for your question of whether or not you can renounce first and file afterwards, you most certainly can. That is what Chester12 is saying and that is what I also am in the process of doing.
@Hippocame: Before you make an appointment to renounce, you may want to consider if you can relinquish instead.
When did you become a Canadian citizen? Did you do this with the intent of relinquishing your US citizenship? Have you done anything since then to reclaim your US citizenship i.e. have a U.S. passport, vote in a US election or file US returns?
@Blaze: I became a Canadian citizen about 1990 without the intention of relinquishing my US citizenship. I have seriously considered relinquishing approximately ten years ago since I have no family ties. At this time, I filed a single return and have not done so since because it was not required. I have no need to visit the US as was the case in the past.
@Hippocampe: You say you became a Canadian citizen without the intent of relinquishing US citizenship. Does this mean you intended to keep your US citizenship when you became a Canadian? If that is the case, then you would be required to renounce now to lose your US citizenship, rather than relinquish.
People who intended to relinquish (i.e., give up) US citizenship by performing an expatriating act such as becoming a citizen of another country, may be able to relinquish, rather than renounce. If you have done anything in the meantime to claim US citizenship, i.e,. US passport, vote in US election or file returns, you would not be able to relinquish, but must renounce.
There is no cost to relinquish, but there is a $450 fee to renounce. Relinquishment can usually be done in one appointment, but renouncing usually takes two appointments.
Some people on Brock who have relinquished are hoping their Certificate of Loss of Nationality will be backdated to the date of their relinquishment (i.e. the date they became Canadian citizens). The wait for a CLN may be a year or more, so we will only know for sure when that arrives.
It’s all very complicated. I am not qualified to give you advice on legal or accounting matters, but remember US Ambassador to Canada told Canadians to “sit tight.”
Because you are a Canadian citizen, Canada Revenue Agency and Jim Flaherty have both said repeatedly CRA will not collect any penalty for failure to file FBARs and will not collect any tax liability on a Canadian citizen owing to IRS. So, personally, I don’t think you have a lot to worry about there, especially if you don’t have a reason to go to the U.S.
The big issue facing you is the one many of us are concerned about–FATCA. You may want to try to have a CLN by the time that takes effect in 2014, but draft regulations from IRS posted on another thread indicates there may be other documentation you can use to confirm you are not a US person.
Finally, remember, Jim Flaherty and the Minstry of Finance are still trying to work with the US on FATCA as it relates to Canada and to Canadian citizens and residents. In addition, some of us have consulted an attorney about our legal options on FATCA.
What all of that means is don’t rush into filling returns. Don’t panic. Consider the options or relinquishing or renouncing. Keep hanging out here at Brock for information and support.
I’m thinking of posting my story here. After reading what others are going through it might appear to be trivial … but it isn’t to me. I’m still trying to wrap my head around the complexities and I can’t believe that having lived a very simple life (I thought) that I am in this predicament. Right now I’m still negotiating with my husband about posting my story which I’ve tried to keep from my perspective as much as possible but obviously he is involved too. (I’m Canadian, he’s American, and we live in Canada.) Meanwhile I will keep reading and hoping this whole issue will be resolved politically in some manner.
The admin of this site has my e-mail and if he/she wishes please feel free to contact me and I will e-mail my story back to see if it would be of any value to anyone here. What I have written so far is quite long so if that’s a problem I’d like to know. Thank you everyone for the information I’m getting here. It’s of more help than any I have received or expect to receive from whatever the U.S. equivalent is to our Service Canada.
Thanks for all the info folks. I’ve been lurking around the last few months trying to figure out what to do. I’m ready to notarize my previous relinquishment. Just made an appointment with the consulate next week (made appointment on-line), downloaded the 4061 & 4079, and will let you know how it turns out. Here’s my stats:
-born south of the border in ’62 to US dad and CAN mother
-moved to BC a few months later
-Canadian Citizenship in 1985 with intent to relinquish
-always lived and worked in Canada
-never had a US passport
-always traveled south on a Canadian passport
-never filed US taxes and don’t intend to
I think I’ve got a pretty good shot at a backdated CLN.
(@Petros—-we’ve probably met before, perhaps fighting over the same dusty patristic volume in the Regent basement)
With regards to border crossings, we go south once a month and I’ve never had a problem. The border patrol usually get a kick out of asking me to spell out and pronounce the town I was born in (Bemidji, USA). I suppose the day I get it wrong they will punt me back.
@Dawid,
Thanks for letting us know of your plans — would you allow us to post your statistics on our Relinquishment and Renunciation thread — if so, what is the consulate where you’ve made your appointment?
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
Your success in obtaining a back-dated Certificate of Loss of Nationality will be valuable information for all of us.
Congratulations on the steps you’re taking!!
@Em,
Please post your story. Every one is valuable to this site. And, you’ll likely get valuable feedback based on what your situation is. Thanks so much for joining in!
@Dawid
I would say you have an excellent shot at a back-dated CLN. Pre 1986 is very important, as posted elsewhere on this site.
Assuming DOS backdates your CLN (and I am quite sure they will), do you plan on filing any tax forms with IRS after they are informed of your CLN?
As calgary 411 asks, please keep us all posted.
Just a comment to activate auto notification. I have nothing of value to add to this thread, but learn a lot!
@calgary411
Well here’s my story, sad but true. I am Canadian (born in Canada). My husband is American (born in the USA) and a permanent resident of Canada. We lived in the USA for 12 years after we got married. I was issued a green card in 1982 which I never used — did not earn any wages in the USA — did not access any USA benefits — did not pay into SS and will not therefore be claiming it for myself in retirement. We came to Canada to visit my parents in the spring of 1994. My mother was taken to the hospital just hours before we arrived. Several weeks later she passed away but my father was not able to take care of himself and his home so I stayed to help.
I only got back to the USA on brief trips (a couple of weeks each) 3 times after that — all before the end of 1997. We had to winterize our house in the USA, bring belongings to Canada and prepare our USA house for sale which was finalized in l997. I have not travelled into the USA in the past 15 years but my husband still makes frequent trips to the USA to visit his elderly mother. The years 1994 to 1997 were a particularly stressful time and the last thing on my mind was my green card status but it was a few years after I returned to Canada that I heard or read that if you did not keep your green card “active” when absent from the USA for a long period it would become null and void. All these years I have felt certain my green card was null and void. I put the card away — never used it — never realized I should have returned it and filled out a form of some kind. I just found my old green card recently and after reading this and other blogs I feel like it is kryptomite in my hands.
Okay, now for our USA taxes. My husband and I have filed jointly all through the years (we included a note saying I am a Canadian citizen, formerly a resident alien of the USA) but now we’re thinking it might be best for him to file separately to allow me to be completely free of the system (I hope it’s possible). We didn’t really know how to untangle his income from mine so we just did what we thought was the right thing and declared both of our incomes on the 1040s so the numbers would match those on our Canadian returns. (We have always included a copy of our Notices of Assessment with our 1040s.) Like most couples, our accounts (merely chequing, saving and GICs) were all jointly held for many years but not so now as we decided a few years back to separate them with my husband having no signing authority over my individual accounts (not what we would like to do but we sensed it was better that way when we saw the change in the FBAR form).
So, finally it comes to FBARs. My husband has always completed a FBAR with all of his individual and our joint accounts listed. I never did a FBAR for my individual accounts because I thought I was not a “US person” of any kind since 1994 or at least 1997 (my last visit to the USA). Now I really don’t know who I am and I guess I never will because I cannot afford to pay an “expert” to tell me. If I try to return my old green card at this late date to get an ALPRS (I-407) I think it might put up red flags and expose us both to some “unknown unknowns”. Whatever I do, I cannot jeopardize my husband’s ability to visit the USA to see his mother. I decided years ago that I would never go to the USA for any reason. I’m trying to decide what do and now the sword of FACTA hangs over our heads. I welcome suggestions but please try not to scare me too much.
The first thing to realize is that you have been completely honest in all of this and you don’t owe them a thing. You might get lots of ideas, some conflicting, They won’t come after you.
The irs has its’ hands full. How about this scenario?
Your husband files as married filing separately. He continues to file FBARs and the new FATCA for his accounts.
You do absolutely nothing with respect to the USA. OR if you decide to get a I 407, it appears to be an easy form to fill in online and mail in. I very much doubt you have a problem. Best of Luck. I’m sure you’ll be OK.
@Em
Thank you for telling us your story, Em. I know it took courage on your part to do so.
I think Chester12 is correct. Your husband continues to file his returns and FBARs and I think you should do nothing.
@ Chester 12 and @ tiger
Thanks for responding. I want to completely sever any misguided relationship I have had with the IRS and this is going to sound really stupid of me but even after reading and re-reading Pub. 519 I’m not sure that should my American husband elect “Married Filing Separately” that I wouldn’t have to do a 1040 for myself anyway which would not be good at all. That seems insane because I am a Canadian living in Canada. If the term was “Married Filing Alone” it would make me feel better. I have stupidly allowed myself to be 1040’d but they will never get a FBAR and now an 8938 from me. Remember, I don’t have an ALPRS (I-407) and I doubt I can get one processed in time for filing this year. It probably wouldn’t apply to the 2011 tax year anyway … I think … unless it releases me retroactively back to when I actually but not officially abandoned my green card over 15 years ago. I have no idea how long they would sit on an I-407 application. I know I’m using stupid a lot here because stupid is as stupid does and boy did I ever do it!
Your husband puts NRA where it asks for your SIN.
Your green card is expired. The I 407 is not needed. Go for it!
Thanks very much for sharing your family’s story, Em. Yours is another aspect of the outrageousness of all this and valuable for discussion on the Isaac Brock site. As I have made so many ‘mistakes’ that have made my situation worse than it could have been, I am the last person on this site to give anyone advice! I can just suggest you read everything you can on the site to come to your own informed decisions for a path to your solution. Others will share the experiences of portions of your story and you will get comments that help you with what you determine for yourself, none of which can be “guaranteed to be the solution”.
It is such an unjust scenario that we have to worry about “mistakes” (our legal lives in Canada and our other countries) being able to jeopardize our spouse’s being able to visit an elderly parent. The whole thing is completely immoral.
No one here wants to scare you, but we do want to offer support. Most here want to educate ourselves and each other in order to further educate others, including our governments. We need to continue to demand our government representatives pay attention and make sure we are not just more US collateral damage.
@calgary411
Please post my stats on the renounce/relinquish forum. I’ve got an appointment at the Vancouver Consulate.
@tiger
I’m not planning on filing any taxes. Since I relinquished in ’85 I don’t have any data left before that period and with regards to post ’85, why would I file taxes for a period when I’m no longer an American citizen? I’m not sure the IRS sees it that way though. I guess a lot will hinge on what they do with dating the CLN.
@Dawid That’s exactly the approach my wife and I took. We claim to have relinquished in 1973 and haven’t had anything to do with official US such as taxes or passports etc since. Why would we? We’ll have a better handle on things when the CLN comes through but that seems so far in the future as to not be worth thinking about yet.
@Dawid & johnnb
I could not agree with you more. DOS and IRS have ‘different’ loss of nationality laws. Well, that is absurd!
I haven’t yet filed for a CLN, but I relinquished in 1972 (included a renunciatory oath in the expatriating act) and my feeling is that there is ‘no way in h***l’, that I would/should have any obligation to file any forms with any U.S. Department be it IRS or Treasury.
When/if I file for a CLN, it will be the Vancouver consulate. Keep us posted on how things go, Dawid.
@ calgary411
Thank you for the support. I’ve been reading here daily (up to 5 hours per) since I was lucky enough to find this site about a week ago. I think we have a plan (at least until another speed bump comes up) and that is to divorce me completely from the IRS starting with our 2011 filing. My husband has said he will divorce me if it’s necessary to protect me from the IRS but we both think that two old farts living in sin is pretty silly … but not totally out of the question (grin). My husband will probably renounce his USC when he no longer has to make trips to the USA to visit his mother. He has now lived over half of his life in Canada (spent most of his younger years here too) and no longer feels any affinity for the country of his birth. Good luck to everyone at the Isaac Brock Society. I will continue to follow along and will pass your URL on to anyone I encounter who might need it too.