Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Tim
I took it to mean that for those of us who became citizens in the distant past (i.e.mine was 1972), but did not file for nor obtain a CLN, could today (2012) apply for the CLN (DOS dates expatriation date as 1972), then IRS (who seem to have their own ‘loss of nationality laws’) expects a 2012 1040 NR marked “Expatriatin Return”. No other forms necessary.
Yesterday, I posted re a Washington DC/Virginia Firm – FLOTT – stating in an article on their website http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/articles/ – that a person applying today for a CLN, seeking formal recognition of her previous expatriating act, would not be liable for any penalty under new U.S. tax initiatives. I took that to mean they would not be required to file the new forms re “Exit Tax” etc. Perhaps this law firm would also suggest just a 1040 NR for the year in which you formally request the CLN.
@outragec
re; March 22, 2012 at 2:25 pm
That was a creative thought – to get academic researchers interested and involved. I hadn’t thought of that. Wonder if any other aspects/angles of our issues would appeal to academics – similar to that one (from England) with the questionnaires about the ‘expatriate’ experience (can’t remember the thread)? The fact that it takes a long time to get published in print journals might mean it wouldn’t be an incentive in the short term for researchers to pursue an issue, but there are now more ‘open access’ online publications – and that platform might be faster than the traditional peer-review process allows for. And being open access – more widely accessible and disseminated to greater range of readers (because not restricted to databases with subscription only or paid access – as in university libraries).
Is the year you obtain a Certificate of Loss of Nationality 2012 or 1978? I would guess 2012. However, Stephen Mopsick said in a previous post that you would only file form 104-NR if you had tax owing. You can’t relinquish if you have filed tax returns. You can’t relinquish unless you can swear you have filed tax returns. Why am I suddenly in this centrifuge?
@hijacked2012
The CLN is definately backdated to the year you committeed the relinquishing act so it would be 1978. One way of swearing you filed is to take the view you filled up to 1977 lets say when you committed reliquinshing act. I don’t if this will fly but its one way of looking at it.
@hijacked2012
At least as of 1993 there was no obligation to file back returns prior to 1967 under any circumstance.
@Tim
I like your way of looking at it, Tim. Particularly since in 1972 when I relinquished, I had been a ‘stay at home mom’ for about 7 years so no need to file anywhere.
@hijacked2012. I do believe from everything that I have read and even looking at the CLN forms both DS-4079 and DS – 4083, that the date on the CLN is the date of the expatriating act. But again it goes to the fact that the U.S. State Dept. and the U.S. IRS have two opposing views on expatriation. DOS says year of expatriating act and IRS says year you apply for CLN. Go figure. I wonder if anyone in Washington DC, in either of those Departments sees how absurd their own laws are.
@ Tim
Sorry. Still in the centrifuge. Didn’t understand your last comment. Why not?
@badger – I have to give credit where it’s due – it was Calgary411’s idea! I just immediately thought it was a wonderful idea and jumped on it. Oh, and I keep being Canada-centric. U of A for those of us not living in Canada, is the University of Alberta. I wonder if other universities in other countries might be interested? Imagine the possibilities if university law students around the world took this on! Young, energetic, inquiring minds!
Right on, outragec — expand on the idea, everyone. Ask those in the universities of countries represented here. The youth of the world will have a lot to say about the future. We can hope their future of being able to live and work in a country of their choice, having been born in the USA or whatever country, will be more just than what we are now experiencing.
then, crediting @Calgary411 for the idea, and @outragec for putting it into action – bravo!
: )
I think you’re right about trying to get international interest. I do dwell on the Canadian angle because that is what I know best. Can’t help thinking that because I only have English skills, that I’m missing other connections to be made – while Googling madly – there must be others having these same thoughts elsewhere in the world. Wish there was a way to cast our net out further.
@hijacked2012
What I was trying to say is that wouldn’t just go out and print an old 1970s tax return and send it to the IRS willy nilly unless you want to raise red flags. However, with further legal analysis it may in fact be the “right” solution. I would try to see if you can get some free legal advice possibly from some law students as Calgary411 is suggesting.
@hijacked2012
This actually from an old GAO report on expatriation. The quote below is actually that of the IRS
According to State Department officials, U.S. citizens desiring to expatriate must sign an oath of renunciation or statement of intent at a U.S. Foreign Service post to receive a CLN. A statement of intent certifies that the expatriates intended to give up their U.S. citizenship when they committed certain expatriating acts, such as naturalization in a foreign country. For tax purposes, the date of the expatriating act, not the signing of the statement is considered the date of expatriation.
@Tim
I am curious. How old is the GAO report? I believe I read somewhere in one of the “law” articles posted on this site, that Bush signed something in 1990 that allowed the “Tax Expatriation Date” to be the date of showing up at the Consulate even while DOS recognizes the date as the day of the expatriating act.
@Tiger
The quote I posted was from 2000. Having said that I have previously heard they same thing about the legislation you are referring to from 1990. A part of me wonders if the US government even knows what the law truly means.
@Tim
Trying to figure them out, as we have all discovered, is quite impossible. I think a few on this site, who have already applied for their CLN, plan to ignore the IRS filing requirements anyway. And I might be naive to think this, but perhaps the IRS will be so overcome with the paperwork of all those millions of returns coming in, that they won’t bother with a few minnows who finally have that much coveted CLN. Especially when they see the date from the 60’s, 70’s – after all there are only so many working hours in the day, unless Obama’s plan is to hire even more civil servants.That would be a popular move with a Republican congress!
@tiger- you are correct. The old rules under the old system were being abused by people who would conviently wait until the six year statute of limitations had elasped on their tax filing obligations before they would formally inform D.O.S.
@recalcitrantexpat
Now one way the IRS could look upon someone like myself – expatriating act 40 years ago – is my, my she really went beyond the statute of limitations. My hope(but perhaps a naive hope) is that when they see individuals coming in for a CLN that they could have applied for 40 years ago, if only they had known about it, that the IRS might be smart enough to realize that it wasn’t a ‘tax dodge’ to not apply for the CLN earlier.
@tiger
One thing I will note out of the report I was reading is when you apply for a CLN no matter how long ago you act of relinquishment was the IRS in Philadelphia(where international filing is handled) will get whatever information you gave the consulate. What they do with it is an open question. In the past it appears in many cases it was simply ignored although you might find yourself on the name and shame list in the Federal Register
@ Tim
One thing I have been curious about – when you apply for the CLN, I see no place on the forms to put a ‘former name’. My name changed when I got married, which was the exact time I landed in Canada. So how do they match up the CLN with a former U.S. tax filer (and by former, I mean 1964)?
I am starting to think that I just might like to have my name added to the name and shame list in the Federal Register.
@tiger
My impression is they would issue the CLN in your current name. I also noticed your name doesn’t go on the Federal Register until the CLN is actually issued and sent in the mail. Thus all these backlogged CLN’s are going drive the Federal Register list sky high right before the US election.
@tiger- when you apply for your CLN shouldn’t you be using the name that is associated with your SSN?
@recalcitrantexpat
My expatriating act was performed in my married name. In other words, my Canadian citizenship document is in my present name and therefore I believe that would be the name on the CLN, as performing that act is what caused me to ‘relinquish’ my U.S. citizenship. As far as a SSN is concerned, I have not used it since 1964 when I filed only 1 of 2 U.S.tax returns for part time work the year I left the U.S. I don’t even know what my SSN is so would not be able to give DOS that number.
@tiger- well it seems that you will need your birth certificat, which you need anyways, and your marriage license. You will have to show that you are the same person, some way of connecting your Canadian identity with your U.S. identity.
What name did you enter Canada under?
@recalcitrantexpat
I entered Canada under my married name – I entered a few days after my marriage. But you are correct – they would want to see the birth certificate and the marriage certificate. Although I don’t remember what documents they looked at when I crossed the border at Detroit/Windsor in 1964, I am sure I would have had to show both the birth certificate and marriage certificate. So they will be able to make the connection.
As I said above, I might be naive but I am hoping that by the time the IRS gets notification of a CLN (if that is the route I choose to go), and they see 1964 and how young I was, 1972 Canadian citizenship with renunciatory oath, they will be so busy they won’t bother with me. As I said, in light of their present behaviours, it is probably naive of me.
So, I am just starting my journey toward renouncing and I’m expecting it to be a bit of a bumpy road. Here’s my story: I was born in the US to Canadian parents and lived there for all of 9months before my parents returned to Canada. I have always thought it was a neat piece of my life that I had dual citizenship and therefore could move easily to the US if I wanted. I’ve never filed any returns, held a passport, or done anything else that might be construed as choosing to be American (my dad did get a SSN for me, but I’ve had to get him to find it in his records – I’ve never seen it!) Since discovering the ridiculous, overbearing and aggressive rules that the US has around its citizens, I want no further connection to them. This, as most here know, is where the problems start.
I’ve been lingering and trying to get my head around the process but I have a couple of questions.
1. Just to confirm, the order of events needs to be:
a. File 5 years of back returns and FBARs
b. Arrange the meetings at the consulate and submit the forms
c. File a 1040NR and 8854 after the ceremony
d. Wait for the CLN to eventually arrive.
2. I am preparing 5 years of filings to send in. Do I need to wait for response from the IRS before I can truthfully say I have been compliant for the last 5 years or is just sending them acceptable?
3. After the ceremony happens, I need to file a 1040NR and form 8854 to complete my “obligations” to the IRS. Is there anything else?
Thanks for the help.