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The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @Outragec
    I believe ‘simply getting themselves into compliance’, he refers to those people who must renounce (can not relinquish). That is true, they need to be compliance.
    The more interesting info in the article is on page three. It speaks to those of us who formerly relinquished, when we performed the expatriating act of becoming a citizen of another country – like you mom. The article makes it sound like it can be reported after the fact, and there is no tax filing obligation.

  2. This guy is an expensive us tax lawyer looking for business. Compare his example of the client who has nothing to do with the US who foolishly got a US passport in the distant past. Flott says he must file. Stephen Mospick would say this (filing) would ‘make the IRS’s day’

  3. @KalC – thanks, I’d missed that in reading his stuff, I didn’t realize the ‘make my day’ referred also to those who might have done something like getting a US passport (in the past). thanks!

  4. I’m not sure about his advice. The section ends with him saying he’ll address relinquishing in his next post – and then I don’t see anything about it.
    He does say that the client must file and I think that’s true – if the client does want to retain US citizenship.
    I do wish he had posted the next bit about relinquishing.

  5. @KalC
    In his example on page 3 (fictitious Joan), he does not say she must file, in fact, he states Joan can seek ‘formal recognition that she relinquished her U.S. citizenship on July 4, 1985, when she took the oath of Canadian citizenship.’ He goes on to say, ‘and thus, not be liable for any penalty under new U.S. tax initiatives.’
    The problem, as I see it with the article, is he speaks to those who must renounce vs those who already had relinquished. Different process for both.

    Re: Steven Mopsick’s reference to “make my day” – Steven was referring to those of us who had performed expatriating acts in the ’60’s,70’s and 80’s’, would be foolish to file. That is a different scenario than Flott’s example of the ‘client born in the U.S. and then returned to home country when he was a month old’. That person did not in fact, perform an expatriating act which would have resulted in “relinquishing U.S. citizenship” and therefore he needs to renounce.

    @Johnnb

    Like you, I wish he had posted the next bit about relinquishing.
    However, John, I think his example of ‘Joan’, fits you to a ‘T’. You performed your ‘expatriating act’ much earlier than ‘Joan’, but both of you pre 1986 (change in U.S. INA). The way I read the article, your CLN should be a “slam dunk” and you should have no requirement for filing tax forms.

  6. I found this bit interesting from the State Department website, emphasis is mine:

    US State Department Services Dual Nationality

    “However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

    Intent can be shown by the person’s statements or conduct. “

  7. @Blaze & Tiger – well, I had what I think is kind of an odd conversation with the lawyer. I couldn’t get any answer about the 3-in-1, and in fact, he seemed to think there was no point in an appointment/meeting unless I want to get my CLN. He said that (point blank) a CLN is going to be required as proof I am not a US citizen to the IRS. Then he said that is where he would come in – to ensure that I was proving intent to renounce, that I am answering the questions correctly. I couldn’t get him to answer if my being a minor at the time made a difference. I guess I would have to book the appointment for assistance with the CLN to find out? It was a strangely unsatisfying conversation, but I don’t have much experience with lawyers, and maybe I wasn’t asking the right questions. If you’d like the name and number of the lawyer, I’d be happy for you to contact me at my email address. If you can’t see it, then perhaps contact Petros? Not sure who does what on this site. Also, the lawyer left his previous firm, so his contact info is different from what Calgary411 gave me. Perhaps one of you might have more success? I mean I was just trying to see if I could get an appointment about by status, but I ended up hanging up without an appointment…. So, now I’m left with the same old question, do I try to get a CLN and what happens if they say I can’t have one because I was a minor at the time. And then I’m on the radar…

  10. @outragec,

    Perhaps this would be best for someone at the Law Society — or how about a University law department — to have a look at. They could perhaps make this issue an interesting project and timely project.

    This whole thing is just unbelievable.

  11. @Calgary411 – that’s an interesting idea! I like it! I’ll do some searching around. In scanning the above form, it’s clear I need my Canadian citizenship records first, so I’ll get those in the meantime.
    thanks for the idea.

  12. @Outragec: That’s our old friend the 4079 form that people relinquishing or claiming to have relinquished fill out.

  13. @johnnb. ah, sorry if someone else already posted it. I have trouble remembering what I’ve read, and where, and who…. at any rate it was interesting to read through, gives me a better sense of what ducks to have in the row…

  14. Call the Law Society of Upper Canada Lawyer Referral Service at 1-800-268-8326 http://fourinfo.cioc.ca/record/CWD0506

    Apparently you can get the name of a lawyer in your area who will provide a free 30 minute consultation.

    I just called them and got a name and referral number. I’ve left a voicemail for the lawyer whose name they provided. They said if the lawyer doesn’t call me back within 4 days I can call back and get another name.

  16. @Outragec, I specifically asked for an immigration lawyer but I think the person they gave me is probably not specializing in immigration. She is local so we’ll see how knowledgeable she is about immigration law.

  17. @OMG – ah, darn. I was so excited I called right away. No luck. Because I’m in Alberta, I was told that I had to call the one I posted above… guess I’ll keep calling at random and hope I get through sometime 🙂

  18. Okay, I just wrote to the Director of the UofA’s Centre for Constitutional Studies – begging for help.
    Dear Ms. Paradis,

    I apologize for taking the liberty to contact you in this way, but I’m feeling a more than a little desperate and when I found your site it seemed that the Center for Constitutional Studies might be perfectly placed to help me – and about a million others.

    I’m not sure if you’re aware of all the issues that have cropped up in the last while regarding the hundreds of thousands of people who became Canadian citizens (many of us decades ago) who fear that the US is attempting to re-claim our citizenship in order to levy huge non-reporting penalties on us. Many of us have requested clarification and assistance from our government and have not received that.

    For example, my mother became Canadian in 1975 and knew she was relinquishing her US citizenship at that time, but is now panic stricken at the thought of being considered a US citizen and potentially being left destitute in her senior years. I am concerned because I became a Canadian in 1976, as a sixteen year old minor, and also thought I was Canadian only. We have lived as Canadian since then – paid our taxes in Canada, voted in Canadian elections, travelled on Canadian passports, and truly believed it when we were told we were relinquishing our US citizenship. The IRS and US Treasure Department and their media releases are now putting that in doubt.

    My mother and I are just two of literally hundreds of thousands of Canadians in this situation.

    We are looking for someone to help us – to help us clarify and determine if we are safe from US taxation, invasion of privacy (FATCA) and having to report on our bank accounts (FBAR).

    The situation is so dire and such a nightmare that a blog has been started so that we can reach out and help each other. For some truly frightening stories, and some simply horribly sad stories, you could check out The Isaac Brock Society, http://www.isaacbrocksociety.com

    Perhaps your institute could take this on as a research project or a case study for students? Or perhaps you might have other suggestions for me, and for others to try?

    I thank you for taking time to read this, and would be grateful for any assistance you might be able to provide

  20. @c411 – thanks, but I missed a typo, darn it. hopefully that won’t put her off too much. I just had to send it while my muse was working, if you know what I mean.

  22. Too bad not at U of C — we could request a personal meeting if interest were shown. Want to take a road trip to Edmonton?

  23. @johnnb & Calgary411, I’m still digging, maybe I’ll find something in Cgy. However, if UofA actually took this on I’d head up there as soon as they let me! Road trip, for sure! And I’m just happy I found something where I could actually contribute – I’ve benefited so much from the collective (and collected) wisdom of you all.

  25. @Outragec

    Bravo!! I am so impressed and so appreciative that you have written this letter. What a great idea.
    Eagerly await any reply. Thank you.

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