Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

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1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @petros- my understanding of renunciations is that the person is presumed to be acting in a willing manner and that they are therefore as a rule “not” questioned. As far as I know the only three grounds for questioning a renunciation are whether or not the act is being performed voluntarily and whether it is being done to avoid taxes.
    At my appointment I was clearly told that the final decision on my application for relinquishment would be up to D.O.S.This is why they ask for a copy of any oath that was taken and is being used as evidence of the self expatriationing act.

  2. I’d be willing to bet when the US gets smacked down by the Financial Stability Board over the disruptive nature of FATCA and what a huge threat it is to the global financial system, the Americans will be robo signing CLNs as retaliation.

  3. @Blaze and JohnnB: I have questioned people here in Switzerland who went through the renunciation process recently to find out just what was said or written about the IRS. NO MENTION orally was ever made about the IRS. There is only one phrase, stuck away in the document that one eventually signs in the presence of the consular office which says, “I agree to contact the IRS” and somewhere in the instructions on how to proceed they also give the IRS URL for the 8854 form. To me it looks purposely vague. One gets the feeling they are leaving it up to the renunciant on what they find best to do! Actually, if you think about it, the State Department and the IRS probably aren’t exactly best friends. In fact, I’m more and more suspecting that the State Department is embarrassed about this whole thing and probably always has been to a certain extent.

  4. @recalcitrant: The question is whether you care what State says. The thing is many here in Canada shouldn’t care what state says. They know, that they know, that they know that they are no longer US citizens. They are scarecrow without the diploma.

    In a sense, I frankly don’t care what State decides. I am no longer US. I informed them of that fact, and if they have problem with it, then that’s their problem.

  5. @avowd- my understanding about the relaltionship between the Department of State and the IRS is that the D.O.S. historically has wanted to have very little connection with the IRS. In an ironic way the D.O.S. has historically had the position that it is important for them to be seen as protecting the privacy of the U.S. citizens who use their services. From what I have read the D.O.S. has always feared that U.S. citizens abroad would not access D.O.S. services if they believed that the IRS would be able to use D.O.S. information to pursue them.
    This is why it has taken so long for the recording of Social Security Numbers to become a part of the passport application form. But even this has run into problems because it turns out that many of the SSN’s that are given are not valid. The D.O.S. doesn’t check for the validity of the submitted SSN.

  6. @expat4ever

    While it is true that DOS asks a bunch of questions and gets to decide whether “the preponderance of evidence” supports your intention to relinquish (and that you’ve done nothing to refute or rebut that intention after committing the expatriating act, like getting a US passport), they can’t just flip a coin on that, and it’s unlikely they would.

    The problem with renunciation, especially for persons who relinquishing by committing an expatriating act prior to February 6, 1994, is that the date of your expatriation will be the day you swear the renunciation oath. Which means 2012. Which means you MUST file a Form 8854 and five years of back tax returns and a statement of net worth and probably also five years of FBARs, or be prepared never to cross the border again or have most if not all your assets seized by the IRS if they can get their hands on them or on you.

    If a person committed an expatriating act voluntarily and with the intent of relinquishing, prior to February 6, 1994 (when the “for tax purposes” dating of expatriation from when you inform State not when committed the act, came into legal effect in the US) and can document the with a sworn affidavit and supporting documents as are available, and can swear with no fear of US contradition based on evidence that (s)he has done nothing since then to “rebut” her/his relinquishment, you are NOT subject to Form 8854 (see IRS Notice 97-19 on their website, go to Section X and read it).

    Renunciation is your only choice for getting a CLN if, after committing an expatriating act at any time in the past, you subsequently asserted or exercised US citizenship (got a US passport, went to a US university as a US citizen, voted in a US election, claimed US citizenship for your foreign-born child, worked and lived in the US without getting a green card, …). Arguably (this probably needs testing in court, but that can be expensive) anyone who acquired dual nationality at birth (by being born in the US of foreign parents or in another country of two parents who were US citizens at the time) also has no choice but renunciation, arguably (in court) even if they never spent any time as an adult in the US or exercised any US citizenship rights, unless they committed a less-common expatriating act voluntarily and with intent to relinquish (taking employment in ANY job in any foreign government or subsidary – provincial or municipal – government while a citizen of the country and 18 or older, or on swearing an oath of allegiance and 18 or over; serving at ANY level in the armed forces of another country under same provisions, or commting an act of treason or sedition against the US).

    This is not legal advice, but I’ve researched the above extensively and yes I have had an extensive paid consultation with a cross-border tax and expatriation lawyer on these matters on behalf of other persons. But every case is somewhat different, and to be safe, get your own professional legal advice.

    “One size never fits all.”

  9. @ expa4ever: Renunciation Guide website is excellent, one of the first resources I found when I delved into this morass months ago. My only complaint is it has little or nothing about relinquishment, which I admit is an option probably not open to a lot of people due to the restrictions on what you can’t do after you commit your expatriating act, and the fact (as some posters on this website have told me privately or even in public posts) that some US border goons and even some tax advisors have stampeded people who otherwise could have relinquished into getting a US passport or entering OVDI or filing IRS returns, all of which basically blow your relinquishment case out of the water.

    @ those who might claim relinquishment, State Form 4079 asks, with respect to “maintaining US ties” since your alleged relinquishment, “do you file US income or other tax returns, yes/no? IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN.” Question 13e. Note that’s IF YES, not IF NO. If you do file US income tax returns, that’s retaining a US tie, since only US citizens, US residents, US green-card holders, and maybe some overseas aliens with certain US income sources, file tax returns. People who relinquished US citizenship and have no US ties (having a couple of family members who still live in the US is NOT preponderance of evidence to rebut a relinquishment, lots of never-US Canadians have family members across the border and visit them) have NO need to have filed tax returns, in their own eyes and, it seems, in State’s eyes either. A “no” answer to question 13e requires no explanation, in State’s eyes at least.

    If you plan on relinquishing and have a solid case for it, for God’s sake do NOT file anything to IRS, OVDI or otherwise. It could impair your getting a relinquishment CLN and, if your expatriation was before February 6, 1994, could blow apart your immunity from Form 8854. Do check this with a cross-border expatriation lawyer, especially the part about how solid your relinquishment case is, because if your case isn’t solid you might get into big trouble with the IRS if you cross the border or have significant US assets that can be seized. But do check this. And don’t stampede yourself, or let anyone else stampede you, into filing anything with anyone (including a US passport application!!!) until you’ve checked the implications thoroughly for your own case with a professional. And, I can’t repeat often enough, I am NOT a lawyer, this is NOT legal advice, and ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT EVERYONE.

    If you’re renouncing instead, ignore the above, you’re going to be stuck with IRS forms, maybe taxes, and maybe penalties, whether you like it or not, unless you have no US assets and no need nor desire to cross the border again.

    Yes I know this repeats what I’ve set elsewhere on this forum and on the other forum, but people don’t (and realistically can’t) read every post, and these points are important distinctions.

  11. @ Schubert,

    Thanks for all your input. I most defintiely believe that anyone who can show an expatriating act, and has done nothing sense to nullify “intent to relinquish”, should “relinquish” and not “renounce”.

    Schubert in your dealings with either cross border tax lawyers or cross border expatriation lawyers (immigration lawyers?), have you had confirmation that an expatriation act prior to Feb. 6/1994 makes one immune from Form 8854?

  12. Would anyone not agree though, if a dual citizen (In the US eyes) was not born on US Soil, has a Canadian birthplace, how on earth are they going to find and locate everyone who “could be” a US citizen. Realistically, if a child born abroad has never been registered and the US knows nothing of them, why go through all the work of “becoming” a US Citizen if their desire is only to renounce, doesnt make much sense. Anyone aware if the Canadian government is looking into this to protect our truely accidental americans?

  13. @ love: I would say that Canada has offered full protection to those born abroad, by saying it will not collect a US tax liability from a Canadian citizen and by saying it will never collect FBAR from anyone. If I were born in Canada, living in Canada, I would just kick back and laugh at the IRS.

  14. Lovecheese said: …if a child born abroad has never been registered and the US knows nothing of them, why go through all the work of “becoming” a US Citizen if their desire is only to renounce, doesnt make much sense. Anyone aware if the Canadian government is looking into this to protect our truely accidental americans?

    I don’t know if anyone is actively looking into that. An elderly relative of ours told me that when his American born mother chose to renounce her US citizenship (probably 50 years ago) they (the US) had him sign a document that stated he would not try to lay claim to US citizenship himself at some later date.

  15. omg: Thank you. That;’s essentially how I remember the words I signed with a US Consulate Official the day of my Canadian citizenship ceremony 40 years ago. Unfortunately, I was not given a copy of it or a CLN.

  17. Questions I need answers to — for my family and many other families out there (Canada in my case, but relevant to other countries too):

    o If the US Department of State will not let us relinquish or renounce on behalf of our disabled children when we have been granted trusteeship to look after / manage their finances by our province in the country where we live and have become citizens, will they also accept that we, their trustees, will not file our children’s US tax returns and FBARs?

    o If this is the case, are these dependent individuals at risk of being arrested upon crossing the border into US territory because they have not filed US tax returns and FBARs?

    o In order for our dependent children to be able to have the same benefit for their registered accounts (Registered Disability Savings Plan and Tax-Free Savings Account) as does a disabled person with only Canadian citizenship, will we have to adopt for them a “don’t ask / don’t tell” / fly under the radar policy?

    o Should cost of the administration for compliance of US tax returns (with $0.00 owed) be borne by the agencies that serve the disabled in Canada (or any other country)?

    o Should cost of the administration for compliance of US tax returns (with $0.00 owed) be borne by the estate of our disabled sons or daughters?

    o Who in the States will look after the needs of my disabled son or daughter when I am incapacitated and not able to do so? Will the US move my son or daughter to the States for their care when I become incapacitated?

    o What benefits are my disabled son or disabled daughter receiving from the US? Would it not make more sense for these dependent individuals to be cared for in the country of their birth? Is common sense used at all in determining the law for these individuals?

    o What Rights and Responsibilities does my disabled son or daughter have with his or her supposed US citizenship, having been born and raised in another country, never registered as a US citizen, never lived in the US?

    o How does the US determine that this is not discrimination on the basis of citizenship, i.e. our dependent children have additional compliance requirements, additional expense of administration, all for $0.00 owing to the US, because they are considered US citizens in addition to the citizenship of their birthplace, Canada? They are also denied assistance in choosing or renouncing US citizenship when they have assistance in decision-making of trustees and/or guardians where they live, Canada.

    o As far as I can tell, they are denied any health care assistance from the US in the country of their residence. They are denied being able to access financial benefit of legal tax laws to save for their retirement in their resident country, in this case Canada, afforded to others who hold only Canadian citizenship. In addition to all of the expense we have incurred so far in defense of our dependent children, must we also incur expense of consulting with a Human Rights lawyer to determine our children’s human rights?

    Canada Ratifies UN Convention on Rights of Disabled
    • Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:15 EST
    OTTAWA, Ontario, March 16, 2010) – The Canadian government announced that they have ratified the United Nations’ Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
    The Hon. Lawrence Cannon (CPC-Pontiac), Minister of Foreign Affairs, ratified the Convention at the UN headquarters in New York on Thursday. “Canada is committed to promoting and protecting the rights of persons with disabilities and enabling their full participation in society,” he commented in a press release beforehand. “Ratification of this convention underscores the Government of Canada’s strong commitment to this goal.”

  18. Another question if anyone has an answer:

    o How about those born in a “foreign country” who claim their US citizenship through their parents’ US citizenship – with FATCA, besides being asked if they were born in the US, will they be asked if they have a US passport, social security number, etc.? My daughter applied for and received a US passport when she was living in Vancouver and subsequently lived and worked in the US for less than eight years before a bad car accident. Her private health insurance reached the ceiling but she still needed medical services to be able to continue working — she took on debt charged to her credit card for these services. Because of residual slight brain damage, she has returned to Canada with that debt incurred because of lack of health insurance, has gone back to Mount Royal University for a two-year course to change her career from computer programming in the corporate world to therapeutic massage therapy, hopefully starting a business run from home. My daughter is doing well in getting her life back on track. As soon as she finishes this school year and her two-year program, she will start the process to renounce her US citizenship. She realizes how big a mistake it was to try to live her life in the US and how important is the health care policy of Canada for its citizens.

  19. @Calgary 411- It is a glooming unknown for many of us I think, for all our children. My children are born in canada and to me are canadian citizens, I never thought of them as a US citizen or even wished to look into it. I feel it should be our right to claim it or my childrens later in life, it shouldnt be suggested they are criminals if they do not come forward and stake their claim. We dont want it! We are not hiding anything, we are a low income family and in no way can we go through the cost alone of registering them let alone flying tot he US for their passports. I am soon to get my CLN and my only fear is crossing the border later on, showing my CLN and having the border guard question me/my kids to the point of just trying to prove they are US Citizens. Its just plain crazy and devastating the chaos this is causing and it is the law abiding people they are affecting, not the true criminals. sad!!

  21. @calgary411- as far as the IRS is concerned anyone who is not in compliance is a true criminal. Unfortunately the mandatory filing law, FATCA and FBAR’s will be about as effective in catching true criminals as are gun licensing laws when it comes to keeping guns out of the hands of murders.
    The real tax evaders have already changed their asset structures so as to avoid this latest crack down. The only people left to catch are those who hold on to a vain hope that the U.S. will come to its senses and those who are too poor to get out.
    The irony is that the groups of citizens who are left in the net are not the ones who are cheating the system. Contrary to what many believe, getting free isn’t cheap or easy. It is actually quite expensive to lose your citizenship and the process itself is fraught with all sorts of peril if you don’t have the money to hire a good lawyer.

  22. @tiger

    I don’t think that any lawyer is ever going to give “confirmation” of much related to this issue. The only “certainty” would arise from a documented case of a pre-1994-expatriation CLN followed by an exchange of correspondence with the IRS or Treasury concerning tax implications (or not) arising from that CLN. Possibly followed by adjudication, if it came to that. I am not aware of any such cases to date. Whatever I know from lawyers has been privileged information paid for by someone else, and I’m not at liberty to discuss it.

    I am aware of several pre-1994-expatriation CLN applications that have gone forward, or are about to go forward. We won’t know the results until the CLNs are granted and the expatriates do whatever they decide to do with the Treasury or IRS and share with us whatever insights or outcomes they choose to share with us on this website. That is likely months down the road, quite possibly not until the end of this year, from what we’ve been hearing about State Department backlogs and processing times.

    That being said: at this time, nothing I have heard or read has caused me to modify my understanding of IRS Notice 97-19 with respect to that 1994 date. However, I repeat, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

  23. While doing some researching on the state departments websites under consular services I came across this:

    Citizenship Claims
    Adults who WISH TO claim citizenship may do so in person at their nearest embassy.

    I liked the phrase…WISH TO CLAIM…it also states:
    Physical presence is different then residence and if you left for vacations or long stays outside the US, you were not physically present in the US for the time required to transmit citizenship…to poor helpless children (I added that part)
    This makes me very happy as I was out of the US after age 14 for 7 months in total visiting my grand parents in canada and left the US forever just after turning 16 🙂 Yhhhaaaa, my kids are saved as according to their website, I was not physically present for two years past the age of 14!!!

    kinda sad to be so excited over this finding and to have a sigh of relief my kids are NOT US citizens. Although, I do not think I have anctual documentation to prove I was out of the country, but I am being honest. I suppose if i wanted my kids to have it, i could lie and not tell them I was out of the country…..but…lets face it, in this case..Honesty IS THE BEST policy :):)

  24. @everyone

    A lot of the focus on renunciation versus relinquishment ignores two important moral facts, ones which are the prime movers for everyone I’ve been helping personally to get a CLN based on relinquishment decades ago. These people aren’t worried about IRS forms, because their incomes put them well below the Form 8854 radar.

    Fact One. How can you renounce something you don’t have, in US law, and don’t believe you have? To renounce now would be an admission that you’ve always been a US citizen all those decades, in spite of your volition and intent to relinquish when you committed your expatriating act, and spite of having done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to assert or exercise US citizenship or claim any “benefits” of US citizenship since committing that act. Not gonna happen, not with the feisy folks I know who came up here as Vietnam war resisters or their spouses (now in all the cases I know, ex-spouses).

    Fact Two. If you’ve lived the past 35 years of your life as a Canadian, not as an American, and have never for one microsecond thought of yourself as an American, acted like one, claimed to be one, and have always been a proud Canadian earning every penny of your income in Canada from Canadian sources, the US claim to your having US citizenship anyway and having to renounce rather than relinquish is essentially a theft of your identity and the reality of your very life for the past 35 years. The replies to this claim that I’ve heard are profoundly unprintable on a public website, as are the adjectives applied to the United States of America and all its works upon hearing this. Relinquishment is a proud claim of who and what you’ve been all these years; renunciation would be a descecration of that.

    For the people I know and have been helping (every one of them an ex-spouse of a Vietnam-era draft dodger or deserter), these two facts trump all other considerations. They are informing the US they relinquished decades ago, in hopes they then can still cross the border to visit ailing and aging family members, and so they can tell their bank to get stuffed when it asks where they were born.

    They are NOT Americans and have NOT been Americans since they became Canadians freely and with intent (not to mention joy and ferocious determination) to relinquish their former US nationality, which one of them has characterized as analogous to a deadly genetic disease.

    Not everyone is going to feel this strongly on this issue, but for those who do, renunciation is a complete non-starter. Either they’ll relinquish, or (in one case I know) they’ll simply refuse to cross the border, refuse even to submit a document to any US official, and fight their banks like banshees when the time comes.

    It isn’t about the money, it’s about their life and their identity and their love of Canada (and their revulsion with the US). And their outrage that the US actually thinks they’re US property and slaves just because they were born there, a choice they never made (unlike the choice they did make to become Canadian). Not entirely unlike the feelings that children born of slaves on US plantations before Emancipation must have felt on learning that, like their parents, they too were slaves.

  25. And, as a final note to my previous post, lest you wonder why it took 35 years to realize they needed to relinquish. NO ONE, including even me, knew back in the 1970s and 1980s of ANY reason or requirement to inform the US of their relinquishment and to get a CLN. EVERYONE knew, or thought they knew, that by becoming a Canadian you would automatically lose your US nationality (and in fact that IS what the law says, the only provision in the act of Congress that requires following a formal process established by the State Department, applies only to renunciation itself, NOT the other six expatriating acts listed in Section 349 of what was formerly the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 but has since been renumbered but with the wording and paragraph structure unchanged).

    I had my CLN for 35 years and totally forgot I had it. When it came in the mail, I laughed. Fortunately I stuck it in a folder with my university transcripts and diplomas. I found it last Fall when, in a panic, I frantically searched my files for some evidence that could prove I’d ditched my US citizenship, maybe a copy of the letter I remember mailed to Doctor Strangelove on July 4, 1976, or the declaration form that the Embassy sent me as a result that I’d signed and sent back, two months later. I didn’t find the first, I never thought to keep a copy of the second, but imagine my joy and relief when I re-discovered my CLN that I’d forgotten about, to which some kind minion in State had thoughtfully stapled a copy of the declaratin form I’d filled out and never copied. Wheee.

    CLNs and relinquishment and renunciation were not something that were advertised, widely known, or on anyone’s radar back then, and only became relevant and memorable when FATCA, OVDI and FBAR hit the Canadian media last Fall.

    How’s that for “reasonable cause” for a 35-year notification delay? Not that there is an iota of legal justification even in US law for asking for such an explanation.

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