Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@greenwood- then you are in the clear. But I wonder if you can relinquish if you were born a citizen of both countries?
I have been looking into this in connection with my children and from what I can read it seems that people who are born citizens of both countries cannot relinquish but must renounce, because their dual citizenship they are not capable of committing an expatriating act.
I would love to hear from someone who understands this issue better than I do.
@greenwood- when I was in the Calgary office waiting to deal with my citizenship there was a lady already there for the same thing. As I talked with her I found out that she had been born in the U.S. to Canadian parents and that they had come back to Canada when she was only 10mos old.
She was there to renounce her U.S. citizenship.
@ recalcitrant Look at the list in 8 USC 1481: Those are acts that if a person does them with the intention of relinquishing, they lose their US citizenship. I.e., it is out of the hands of the US government. You then go into the consulate and inform them of that decision to relinquish. That is the law. If State does not accept your stated intention, they are breaking the law–this one and the 1868 Expatriation Act.
@petros- well they are not going by the “law”. As someone else has said, they are reluctant to give out relinquishments.
@ recalcitrant Good point. However, it is best to go in armed with one’s rights rather than to have no idea what they are or what they should be. The State Department bullies people to be sure, but we want to hear the stories. This will help our case that the United States is in violation of international conventions regarding citizenship–and its own laws to boot.
I understand the appeal of relinquishing to save money or if you really lost citizenship decades ago and are just trying to get proof of that now to avoid ridiculous back taxes claims.
Personally I will be renouncing even though I have performed two different acts that could allow me to relinquish (most notably working for a foreign government). I want to be 100% sure that I get a CLN and that I cut all ties with the US. Relinquishment seems more difficult to get and I will gladly pay 450 dollars if it means being certain of shedding citizenship. I couldn’t care less if the US invokes the “Reed Amendment” against me since I have no reason to visit there at all either.
@ Don I see what you mean, and I think it is a pity that State doesn’t take human rights more seriously.
@Don, I’m sure you already know the following. I’m just stating it here to get it “in stone” on the blog:
To the US CONgress, the blue passport is invaluable: we can go there anytime we want to without a visa and work there. To them, as long as we have these benefits, we are to be lumped in with the Americans in America and treated/taxes as such. The only way to get out of such arrangement is to renounce.
And I stand by what I say about *rich fat cats*: they are the enemy it will take years to “find” or never find them at all. I think that’s just BS coming out of some politicians mouths. Anyone with A LOT of money could just buy 2nd citizenship and then renounce US Citizenship very quickly instead of dealing with the crap. So to me, an EXTREMELY rich US citizen, who made their money overseas and is still holding onto their passport, is a phantom person. The US DOJ press released seem to confirm what I’m saying because so far, everyone who has been prosecuted is a US resident. And in my opinion, they live there so “most” of them deserve that they get. I’m not saying “all” of them because if someone earned money overseas, and paid tax overseas on the money, there should be no penalty IMHO.
By the way, politicians know they have to repeat their lies over and over again for people to actually believe them. Joseph Goebels said this, and so did George Bush II.
@geeeez
Agree about the true FATCATS out there. Half of them half have already bought a passport in Dominica or St Kitts and Nevis and renounced, whilst the rest probably have set up special “corporations” and other complicated ownership structures of their assets abroad that make it impossible for anyone to trace.
@greenwood
I consulted a lawyer back in september. Here is what I was told. Because I was born in the U.S. to Canadian parents I was born a dual citizen. I couldn’t relinquish I had to renouce if I didn’t want my american citizenship, and that is what I did last week. Well worth the 450.00. and the money spent on tax filing. To protect my canadian family and myself. Who knows what the U.S. will come with next. I have many family members in the U.S. I will not cross border until I have my CLN in hand and my goodbye conformation from the I.R.S.
Greenwood, I looked into this (your) situation very carefully because it mirrors my children’s cases. You can Google the HEART Act of 2008. You will see here that the exit tax requirement does not apply to you.
Because “There is only one exception for adults. If you received citizenship of both the U.S. and some other country at birth, if you continue to hold the citizenship of that country, if you are taxed as a resident of that country, AND if you have been a resident of the U.S. for no more than 10 of the 15 years prior to renouncing U.S. citizenship, you’re exempted from the exit tax provision.”
My advice would be this: If you think you won’t be going to the States, I would just forget about the whole thing. They don’t know you exist. Particularly if you never went there with your U.S. pass.
If you are worried, however, then for your peace of mind, go through the renunciation process (know that it will cost you $450), but my own personal take on the 8854 Form is that it is an outlogging procedure to get you out of the IRS files. If you are not IN their files, I don’t see why one should have to, or want to, poke this sleeping bear. They are only as smart as their computers. If you are not in already, you don’t particularly want to oblige them to put you in.
@ all Ok folks, I recommend that you reread 8 USC 1481; Greenwood has a case to relinquish as an employee of the federal government of Canada. The $450 fee applies currently only to renunciations.
My reading of that text would indicate that a person working in a government post can simply go an inform the Consulate that they have performed a potentially relinquishing act with the intention of relinquishing. That is an expatriating act, which must be honoured by the State Department.
Petros, I just read this. Wonder why this is not talked about more. See the date is 1952 and wonder about its current validity? Because dual nationality IS recognized by U.S., and you wouldn’t think so by clause 1 in the Code. Perhaps being a Canadian federal imployee automatically annuls U.S. citizenship, but if he still has a valid U.S. passport…even if it is expired. In any case, I think Greenwood very little to worry about.
@ avowd Well, you can get rid of citizenship, but to do it on this basis may be tricky because generally they assume you want to keep your US citizenship. So you have to go in and convince them that you didn’t want it any more.
And you know cases where they will do this and not demand the $450 fee for renunciation?
This is what it says under FAQ’s on the renunciation site:
• U.S. law says that my expatriation is as of the date when I perform an expatriating act intentionally. There are a few acts in addition to just walking into the embassy and renouncing. For example: naturalization in another country, serving in another country’s military, etc. So why do I have to go to the embassy to do it?
Technically, you’re right. If you take the citizenship of another country and intentionally mean to lose U.S. citizenship by doing it, then yes, you’ve expatriated.
The problem, though, comes from both the Department of State and from the IRS.
Since a Supreme Court ruling in 1980, the Department of State has had a policy of assuming that no action you take is done with the intention to renounce citizenship (the exception is fighting on behalf of hostile powers in a war against the U.S.). The only way you can overcome this assumption is by actually telling the Department of State yourself; in other words, by going to a diplomatic post and formally renouncing.
Let’s take an example. Say you took citizenship in another country in 2002, but didn’t formally renounce U.S. citizenship. According to the Department of State, you would still be a U.S. citizen, regardless of whether they know of your new citizenship or not (and generally they would not know if you don’t tell them).
So you have to go to a diplomatic post to tell them in order for them to record you as an ex-citizen. The expatriation isn’t official until they approve it after you formally renounce at the embassy. But if you want, even if you formally renounce in 2010, you could still claim that 2002 was your date of expatriation because you intended, by your naturalization in the other country, to renounce U.S. citizenship. And as long as your explanation seems reasonably credible, the Department of State will almost certainly accept 2002 as your date of expatriation.
Then comes the problem with the IRS. They date your renunciation from the time when you actually go to the embassy and formally renounce, not from the date of the expatriating act. So even if the Department of State actually says, ex post facto, that your expatriation was from 2002, the IRS will still consider it to be from 2010.
The reason is that lawmakers wanted to prevent people from getting a free pass. The scenario would be that you could perform an expatriating act, but not actually tell the Department of State. Then, you can spend years – your whole life, even – with the free option to benefit from U.S. citizenship if you ever wanted it; for example, by claiming the protection of the U.S. government/embassy overseas in dangerous times. But you wouldn’t have to pay any taxes, because you technically had already renounced. And if you ever were faced with an audit or otherwise needed to prove that you were not liable to U.S. taxes, you could simply walk into an embassy, formally renounce, and claim a date of expatriation years in the past.
We’re not really sure how many people did this or even were capable of playing this ruse, and we don’t know of any actual cases, but records of discussion show that lawmakers really put a lot of time into thinking about this possibility and shutting it down before it could occur.
One has a unilateral right to expatriate. The IRS laws are in contradiction to that fundamental right. Such laws would never stand up in the Supreme court in my view.
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/01/31/freedom-of-emmigration-in-east-west-trade-usc-title-19-%C2%A7-2432/
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/23/the-stalker-the-messy-divorce-process-from-the-united-states/
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/19/forget-about-form-8854-filing-last-5-years-of-tax-etc-usa-law-establishes-a-right-to-unilateral-expatriation/
@Avowed: If you performed one of the expatriating acts and go in to a consulate to tell them about it you should be relinquishing and not renouncing. If you relinquish you are not asked for the $450 or at least I wasn’t.
Yes, there should be two dates on your CLN but even though the IRS says it will only accept the date you told them i.e. the more recent date, I am hopeful that the fact that that regulation came into effect years after I expatriated will mean that it does not apply to my case and not to anyone who expatriated before 6 Feb 1994.
@donpomodoro- I also decided to renounce rather than rather than hold out for an appproval of my relinquishment application because I too wanted the certainty. Either way you go it makes no difference because for the IRS your official date of expatriation is the date that you notify DOS. The advantage of relinquishment is obviously the elimination of the fee. But as you point out the one time fee is a small price to pay compared with the ongoing costs of compliance and the exposure to the draconian penalties for even the smallest of infractions.
@johnnb:Z It’s good to hear from you again. When you made your 1973 relinquishment official recently, were you required to complete any IRS forms or is that not necessary on a pre-1994 relinquishment?
@recalcitrant: Obviously the sooner the person tells the consulate of the relinquishing act, the less likely that the State Department will rule against you. Thus, I became a Canadian 28 Feb 2011, and by April 7, 2011, the earliest possible appointment, I had informed the consulate (because I was armed with knowledge). If they rule against me, they will have a lot of explaining to do. My case is open and shut.
The main thing after a potentially relinquishing event is consistency. Have you act in a manner consistent with your alleged desire to relinquish?
@Blaze: Neither taxes nor the IRS were mentioned during my appointment at the consulate. This doesn’t mean that when the CLN comes through there may not be IRS paperwork included but it was strictly a citizenship issue during the time I was there.
I had given consideration to the merits of relinquishment vs. renunciation.
I am no lawyer. But relinquishment seemed to put the determination of whether or not a person had committed an expatriating act into the hands of some gov’t bureaucrats.
Renunciation was very clear as it is an expatriating act in itself, leaving no room for interpretation or moving the goal posts.
Therefore, I decided to take control of my own destiny and renounced. I received my CLN about two months later; 450 beans well spent.
@Actually, relinquishment technically takes the act of expatriating out of the hands of a bureaucrat–and hence they would have a hard time charging $450 because you are informing them of an act that you have already committed; and you don’t need a consular officer to do it. Do not be deceived. The same State Department has the right to reject a renunciation case. But now that they take the $450 up front, you won’t get your money back if they reject your renunciation.
I paid the 450 when I picked up my CLN.