The Isaac Brock Society consists of individuals who are concerned about the treatment by the United States government of US persons who live in Canada and abroad.
If clicking on a link brings you to the wrong page in the comment thread, click here to arrive on the current page of the thread: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/about-the-isaac-brock-society/
The United States is one of two countries in the world that taxes its people no matter where in the world they may reside. The other is Eritrea, which the USA has condemened for terrorism and for its diaspora tax. The majority of US persons who live abroad are not aware of their filing requirements. But recently, the US government has decided to crack down on those who are not in compliance.
But what is more, the US government has begun, since about 2004, to apply with great pressure a long-neglected requirement of 35-year old law called the Bank Secrecy Act. That requirement is FBAR, the foreign bank account report, which the United States government expects annually from those who have accounts outside of the United States which exceed $10,000 in aggregate. The fines for failure to file this form are extortionate, and virtually no US person who lives abroad even knew about FBAR, while most of them, over a certain age, own bank accounts with retirement savings exceeding that amount. The threats of fines and imprisonment has frightened many people who as a result have consulted expensive accountants and tax lawyers to get this mess sorted out, only to face high accounting or legal fees on top of potential fines and back taxes. In 2009 and 2011, the IRS offered voluntary disclosure programs (OVDI). Some who entered into the 2009 OVDI, because of fear of the penatlies, were shocked when the IRS assessed them fines in the tens of thousands, essentially treating them as tax evaders instead of a law abiding citizens in their countries of residence.
For many US expats, renunciation now seems like a really good idea. Why not? Many haven’t lived in the US for years and now they have few ties there except perhaps some family members. So they want to renounce their citizenship only to find that the laws regarding expatriation are confusing and that the exit tax requirements are at best complicated and invasive, and at worst, extortionate and utterly in violation of their right to expatriate.
The media coverage of this issue has been uneven. There have a been a few balanced stories, but most of the time, the media has merely publicized the purposes of the US government; this is especially true of US media sources. The Canadian media has generally done a much better job of grabbing the attention of the world about the abuses of the US government. That being said, even the Canadian media sometimes falls into the IRS trap of projecting fear in order to force compliance. Overall, we regret when the media offers only condemnation and fear without telling the story from the side of the victims or informing them of their rights and alternatives.
US persons abroad also face US border guards who are starting to put pressure on all those who have a US place of birth to travel only on a US passport, even if the person has not been a US person for decades–an arbitrary change of policy making those who relinquished citizenship into would-be loyal taxpayers to a profligate government that has to borrow 40 cents on every dollar its spends.
The Isaac Brock Society is here to fight. Sir Isaac Brock prepared Canadians for war with the United States and gave his life in repelling a US invasion in 1812. So we also want to fight for US persons who are frightened by the IRS, the border guards, the compliance condors, and the media. We are here to provide one another with resources and strategies, comfort and advice.
But not only so, we are here to warn other Canadians about the illegal incursion of the US federal government into the lives of the US expat community. Pretty soon, with the new FATCA legislation, this arrogant attitude of the United States will affect every man, woman and child on the planet who wants to open or maintain a bank account or to invest in a retirement fund. Now, according to FATCA, you will have to tell the United States whether you are a US person when you open up a bank account in, e.g., Australia or Thailand. This makes every country in the world a protectorate of the United States, for, if they comply with FATCA, they are ceding their very sovereignty to a nation which has not invaded or conquered the rest of the world, but only uses its waning hegemony over the financial sphere to coerce other nations.
So whether you are a US person living in exile, a Canadian or a citizen of any other country, we ask you to join us in this struggle for freedom and justice.
@Kingston,
I completely agree with KalC and Blaze. The loss of citizenship is based on the balance of probabilities. You filed taxes in error based on incorrect information, not in an attempt to reclaim or exercise US citizenship. I can think offhand of two people for sure, and possibly a third, here in Canada who did that back in ’11 (what with the confusing, inaccurate information) and got their CLNs correctly backdated, to the date they acquired their Canadian citizenship, with no problem at all.
Successful resolution of IRS and U.S. citizenship issues
This is an updated statement about our successful resolution of our issues with the IRS and the question of our U.S. citizenship.
We are now retired senior citizens. We are Canadian citizens, having arrived in Canada in 1968. We obtained Canadian citizenship in 1974. We were eager to become Canadians.
At that time we were warned that if we became Canadians we would lose our U.S. citizenship. Despite that understanding, we became Canadians and relinquished our U.S. citizenship. We were no longer U.S. citizens. (Years later we have discovered that that position of the U.S. had changed and we were considered dual citizens.)
Once we became Canadian citizens we no longer filed U.S. income tax returns. Late in 2011 we were informed by a taxation preparer that we might be considered U.S. citizens obligated to file U.S. tax forms and FBARs. He told us about the OVDI. We had US tax forms and FBARs prepared (at great expense) and submitted them. We owed no US taxes. But, fearing horrendous penalties for not submitting FBARs on time, under protest because we believed we should not be required to do so, we applied under the OVDI and paid the smallest penalty we thought might be accepted. We protested paying any penalty at all.
Almost two years later we received a call from an IRS agent who told us about the Streamlined Process and recommended that we apply under the Streamlined Process. Our application under that process was successful. We have received a full refund of the penalty we paid.
While we were successful, and while IRS agent was very helpful and supportive, this experience has been costly and extremely distressing. It has been an on-going nightmare. |It has deeply soured our relationship with the U.S. government.
We appreciate the intervention by James M. Flaherty, Canadian Minister of Finance, with the U.S. government on behalf of Canadians in our situation.
We followed the advice of our Isaac Brock Society friends Pacifica777, KalC and Blaze and had an interview with the U.S. consulate. We provided documentation to show that we had relinquished our U.S. citizenship in 1974. The consulate official agreed. We are expecting a Certificate of Loss of Nationality back dated to 1974 to be mailed to us in 3 to 4 months.
Thank you Pacifica777, KalC and Blaze.
I will post more on the forum dealing with renunciation.
I live in Canada, and I am forced to file an FBAR. Both the IRS and treasury Dept. websites state that a receipt of confirmation can be made 90 days after filing. The number given (866-270-0733) does not work.
I get a message stating that “this number cannot be reached from your calling area”…..huh?
I live in Canada btw.
@Jim, try dialing 313-234-6146. Americans living abroad have to pay to call while stateside Americans don’t.
Jim, some of the USG agencies can’t be called unless you live in the States. Yeah, dumb, but that’s them. You can request a copy of your tax return via the IRS site (because they don’t acknowledge returns from expats but they will send you a copy of the last return you filed if you make an online request). So, your best bet is to check the State Department site and see if you can’t do something similar via that. Or you can simply contact your nearest US consulate and ask them how to obtain a receipt. Technically, FBAR is their jurisdiction anyway. Hope this helps.
The USG makes no sense at all when it comes to we expats. Welcome to the club.
@Jim, the US 1-866 number should work with Skype, if you have Skype.
@Kingston,
I don’t usually look at this thread, and just saw your comment on September 4th. Really appreciate it, and will link a reference to it over on my Dudgery for Minnows thread…. thanks for letting us know, and sorry that this was such a stressful experience. Interactions with the Empire do that to you.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/28/the-ovdi-drudgery-for-minnows/
I thought this might be a good place to put an article about the War of 1812.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/27/canada-won-the-war-of-1812-u-s-historian-admits/
If someone with authorship privileges would be able to blog this: The Vancouver US Consulate FINALLY has new appointments available for “other” ACS services. If you have been trying to book a renunciation appointment, get there quickly.
Vancouver US Consulate Appointment Page
https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/default.asp?PostCode=vac&appcode=1
Bizarre – there are plenty of spots available in October, a few in November, and none in December.
Wonder what happened to result in this.
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And now in Calgary the wait for an appointment is 4 months! Oh well, my husband would rather deal with the Calgary staff so he’s not likely going to consider a trip to Vancouver just to get a sooner date. He had hoped to get this over with in 2013 but no such luck. Does anyone know if Vancouver is finally doing one appointment relinquishments and renunciations?
@ tdott
The Vancouver Consulate hasn’t had any appointments since mid-July. They seem to open short blocks of appointments, then hibernate for months. No rhyme or reason, so you are left checking the appointment page obsessively.
@Cyal8rUS
So basically no real change. Sigh.
Also, if 2 appointments are still necessary, you’re left dangling even if you can get the 1st appointment.
Just changed their stance on renuncations/relinquishments:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/10/09/expatriation-appointments-at-vancouver/comment-page-1/#comment-571472
So go prepared and do it in one go – FINALLY!
@tdott,
Most of the consulates which use the on-line booking system have been making available booking just for the current month and the next month. So, at least at the other consulates, the December slots would be showing up around November 1st. Hopefully Vancouver will be doing this from now on — keeping my fingers crossed — and that now that they’ve changed to 1 visit only, things will really get moving there.
UPDATE: Turns out Vancouver’s not using the on-line booking system for renunciation/relinquishment anymore. You have to e-mail them at VancouverCLN@State.gov
The consulates are open during the USG shutdown because they collect fees for services which keep them funded. Doing some $450 renunciations (up to 30/month) would certainly help them keep their doors open. Maybe that is why Vancouver has a sudden interest in making appointments available. I know, I know … I am so cynical.
Another update:
I have just received an email saying that booking a renunciation / relinquishment through the online portal will not allow me to renounce. I emailed the indicated email address and they have now replied.
Looks like it will only be ONE INTERVIEW!!!
Quote:
“Thank you for contacting us regarding renouncing U.S. citizenship.
Please do not reply to this email. This inbox is not monitored.
Renunciation of U.S. citizenship must 1) be taken in the presence of a
diplomatic or consular officer; 2) be taken outside the United States;
and 3) be in the precise form prescribed by the Secretary of State. It
is an irrevocable action that cannot be reversed. Should you choose to
pursue renunciation of your U.S. citizenship, you will have to complete
form DS-4079 – Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United
States Citizenship and come to the Consulate to sign an “Oath of
Renunciation of the Nationality of the United States” and a “Statement
of Understanding”. These documents form the basis for the Department of
State’s decision regarding the U.S. citizen’s request to renounce
citizenship and are enclosed for your information.
Please review these additional documents before scheduling an
appointment: Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship (
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
), Right
of Residence in the U.S. (
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html
), and
Dual Nationality (
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
).
On July 13, 2010 the Department of State implemented a fee of $450 for
administrative processing of formal renunciation of U.S. citizenship.
This fee is payable in either U.S. or Canadian dollars or by major
credit card on the day of your appointment.
Once you have all forms filled out and you have gathered the required
evidence, please email vancouveracs@state.gov
to schedule an appointment. Your email
should indicate that you read this email and that you have filled out
all your required forms and gathered all required supporting
documentation. Please include a contact phone number in your email.
IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING APPOINTMENTS
If you arrive fully prepared for your appointment, we will likely
process your loss of nationality in one interview. If you do not have
the forms filled out or if you do not have all required original
evidence, you will need to return for a second appointment.”
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hope I am the only one with a problem accessing this site
the links at Maple Sandbox, Franco-American Flophouse
and clicking on the site header from a Google search
causes the webnames.ca site to come up
with underdevelopment as a reference.
@Cyal8rUS, makes sense. The fees collected from renunciations helps them to earn money during the government shutdown.
@Patricia, that happens every now and then, just try later again. Sometimes it helps to flush the dns.
Dear Senator Schumer:
I would like to have your opinion on a proposal I am crafting. I intend to lobby European governments to adopt this proposal, but I think Canada and a number of other countries might be interested.
The purpose of my proposal is to deny entry of people such as yourself into any country which adopts my proposal. But I would contrast my proposal with your recent legislative initiatives, since yours are clearly profit-motivated. But I’m not quite as greedy as you. So here is my proposal:
“Any alien may be permanently excluded from entry if the determines that the alien has, as a member of a national legislative body, voted to discriminate, in a manner inconsistent with international norms, against individuals solely because they have exercised a right in the United Nations Charter of Human Rights. The burden of proof will be on the alien to demonstrate clearly and convincingly that his or her primary motive in punishing those who exercise such rights was not financial.”
What do you think? I would like to point out that, you may be denied entry to any country which adopts the proposal, even if your own attempts to punish people for exercising the right of expatriation are unsuccessful.
I’m sure you’ll support my proposal – you’re not a hypocrite, are you?
Regards,
Alex Tschentsov
Sorry, my comment was incomplete.
I meant to include an introduction to indicate that this is an email I just sent to Senator Schumer, who wants to ban people who expatriate from ever entering the US again. I also changed the incorrect name in the letter to the correct “United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights”.
AT
@Patricia, no I’ve been having problems in the last 24 hours too. Every time I try and use http://www.isaacbrocksociety.ca I get taken off to http://www.webnames.ca instead. The only way I can access the site is to use the comments button on any e-mails I’ve received. When I’m on the site I can’t access the homepage either, although I can reach everything else.
I’ve e-mailed Pacifica777, but I’m not sure they’re getting through either. Guess I’ll try the dns flush out and see if that helps.
@Medea Fleecestealer, the dns flush always works for me. Otherwise, clear the browser cache or reset the router.