The Isaac Brock Society consists of individuals who are concerned about the treatment by the United States government of US persons who live in Canada and abroad.
If clicking on a link brings you to the wrong page in the comment thread, click here to arrive on the current page of the thread: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/about-the-isaac-brock-society/
The United States is one of two countries in the world that taxes its people no matter where in the world they may reside. The other is Eritrea, which the USA has condemened for terrorism and for its diaspora tax. The majority of US persons who live abroad are not aware of their filing requirements. But recently, the US government has decided to crack down on those who are not in compliance.
But what is more, the US government has begun, since about 2004, to apply with great pressure a long-neglected requirement of 35-year old law called the Bank Secrecy Act. That requirement is FBAR, the foreign bank account report, which the United States government expects annually from those who have accounts outside of the United States which exceed $10,000 in aggregate. The fines for failure to file this form are extortionate, and virtually no US person who lives abroad even knew about FBAR, while most of them, over a certain age, own bank accounts with retirement savings exceeding that amount. The threats of fines and imprisonment has frightened many people who as a result have consulted expensive accountants and tax lawyers to get this mess sorted out, only to face high accounting or legal fees on top of potential fines and back taxes. In 2009 and 2011, the IRS offered voluntary disclosure programs (OVDI). Some who entered into the 2009 OVDI, because of fear of the penatlies, were shocked when the IRS assessed them fines in the tens of thousands, essentially treating them as tax evaders instead of a law abiding citizens in their countries of residence.
For many US expats, renunciation now seems like a really good idea. Why not? Many haven’t lived in the US for years and now they have few ties there except perhaps some family members. So they want to renounce their citizenship only to find that the laws regarding expatriation are confusing and that the exit tax requirements are at best complicated and invasive, and at worst, extortionate and utterly in violation of their right to expatriate.
The media coverage of this issue has been uneven. There have a been a few balanced stories, but most of the time, the media has merely publicized the purposes of the US government; this is especially true of US media sources. The Canadian media has generally done a much better job of grabbing the attention of the world about the abuses of the US government. That being said, even the Canadian media sometimes falls into the IRS trap of projecting fear in order to force compliance. Overall, we regret when the media offers only condemnation and fear without telling the story from the side of the victims or informing them of their rights and alternatives.
US persons abroad also face US border guards who are starting to put pressure on all those who have a US place of birth to travel only on a US passport, even if the person has not been a US person for decades–an arbitrary change of policy making those who relinquished citizenship into would-be loyal taxpayers to a profligate government that has to borrow 40 cents on every dollar its spends.
The Isaac Brock Society is here to fight. Sir Isaac Brock prepared Canadians for war with the United States and gave his life in repelling a US invasion in 1812. So we also want to fight for US persons who are frightened by the IRS, the border guards, the compliance condors, and the media. We are here to provide one another with resources and strategies, comfort and advice.
But not only so, we are here to warn other Canadians about the illegal incursion of the US federal government into the lives of the US expat community. Pretty soon, with the new FATCA legislation, this arrogant attitude of the United States will affect every man, woman and child on the planet who wants to open or maintain a bank account or to invest in a retirement fund. Now, according to FATCA, you will have to tell the United States whether you are a US person when you open up a bank account in, e.g., Australia or Thailand. This makes every country in the world a protectorate of the United States, for, if they comply with FATCA, they are ceding their very sovereignty to a nation which has not invaded or conquered the rest of the world, but only uses its waning hegemony over the financial sphere to coerce other nations.
So whether you are a US person living in exile, a Canadian or a citizen of any other country, we ask you to join us in this struggle for freedom and justice.
@cowbell, I agree with The Mom. You seem to have absolutely no physical indicators (birth certificate, passport, etc) of US citizenship so frankly forget about it. You are Canadian and nothing else. If the Americans want to claim you, let them try it. You’re invisible as far as they’re concerned, you’re non-existant. Forget any US connection and just get on with your life because nothing is going to come back and bite you.
@Cowbell Ignore the media hype about you are a U.S. citizen. You were born in Canada. You are Canadian.
Don’t get sucked into getting a SSN or U.S. passport for the purpose of renouncing. Those actions would likely be seen as you claiming U.S. citizenship.
I think someone posted some time ago that he or she went to the U.S. Consulate with a sibling to renounce because a parent was an American. They had never been registered as U.S. citizens, had never had a SSN or passport. The Consulate told them they did not need to renounce because they were not U.S. citizens. Does anyone else remember that?
Also, lawyer John Richardson is of the opinion that the U.S. cannot force citizenship on people born outside the U.S. You may want to consult with him. We do not usually recommend lawyers or accountants but John is the exception because of the immense amount of work he has done on this issue and his dedication to helping people.
You can learn more about John and how to contact him at http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/
If what you learn here helps you and you avoid the ridiculous fee to renounce, I hope you will donate to our lawsuit fund, A positive decision for us would help your mother and you.
@Cowbell,
Read here and learn from the mistakes of others. Mine is the perfect example.
The reason I have come out regarding my son’s *entrapment into US citizenship* (and other families that may be in the same position) is the FBARs (Foreign Bank Account Reports / FINCEN114) I filed with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network in conjunction with my official renunciation of US citizenship in 2012, with the bank accounts that I hold at my local Canadian *foreign financial institution* on behalf of my son, including a Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) account — all that private account information for my son and all of his identity information, sitting now in the US. Are those FBARs ever to be searched and my son outed — I don’t know. My son is Canadian as are you (unless as an adult you choose to *claim* that US citizenship because of your facts — or at least that is the way I THINK it should be in any responsible / moral country regarding their citizenship and its citizenship-based taxation consequences for *non-meaningful* Accidental Americans as you and many others born in Canada).
I made life-changing mistakes that put me into the US jurisdiction again decades after being warned by the US Consulate that I would be losing my US citizenship when I became a Canadian in 1975. (That may or may not be the same case for your mom!).
I don’t think ANY parent (as your US citizen mom) would purposely put their children into such a position as you find yourself now. Your US parent did not register your US birth abroad — she apparently thought and wanted, as I did, her and your dad’s children to be CANADIAN.
You have the wise counsel of many here to help you make your decision. Take a deep breath and recognize the support you’ve found at Brock. The ADCS litigation is also part of the efforts to protect those like you. Your support there would be so appreciated: see http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/. You are definitely not alone!
@cowbrll
You are not a US citizen.
You were born in 1985. This means your mother had to live in the US for at least 10 years after the age of 14. She didn’t. You said she was 21 when she came here which amounts to only 7 years.
You are not a US citizen.
After posting this I noticed you put 1985 in one comment and 1986 in the second. The rule was changed for births after a date in 1986 (I forget which date exactly but think it is in mid-November. I will look it up).
Do you mind putting up your exact date?
@Blaze
I do remember the comment but I don’t remember if any dates were given.
Of course, I do not think anyone should accept being a USC in cowbell’s situation. I was pointing out the US would have to accept its own rule for 1985 births. I am keeping my fingers triple-crossed and hoping birth was earlier than cut-off date so there is an undeniable answer for total reassurance.
More
goodMOST VALUABLE information.…and information, using this formula, that I can check to try to figure out my own children’s deemed US fate. So can others now do that as Tricia has highlighted for us this particular US citizenship regulation.
(ex. I turned 18 in 1961 and, by fate of life facts, my children were born in Canada in years 1972 and 1974, so don’t meet that rule. Additionally, their life facts meet the unfair rule that they acquired US citizenship as BOTH of their parents were US citizens when they were born. Shouldn’t that be their decision upon age of majority and *with requisite mental capacity* to make such a decision — a decision based on full knowledge of both benefits and all of the consequences of being a US citizen in another country?)
More proof of *the luck of the draw* — nothing JUST about any entrapment into US citizenship.
This absolutely points out the wise advice we have that before any other action, first learn if you really are a US citizen. Perfect information for you from Tricia Moon, cowbell! Check it out for yourself.
Tricia It’s so sad and arbitrary it stinks. According to this table from the London Embassy it’s 10 years altogether before the child is born but only 5 after the age of 14. Too bad Cowbell’s Mom wasn’t a child bride.
http://photos.state.gov/libraries/unitedkingdom/164203/cons-acs/transmission_tables.pdf
Doesn’t change our advice though. After much reflexion on her part, we all hope cowbell comes to the right decision. Forget all about it. She will save a lot of heartache ( just ask Calgary) and not a little money- fee to obtain citizenship $135, fee to dump it $2350, lawyers fees – several thou. , accountants fees several thou, and on and on and on and on. Good luck cowbell.
@cowbell
Trish makes a very good point, first determine whether you are entitled to US citizenship (were you by any chance born out of wedlock?), then take the advice to IGNORE any claim the US might have on you.
My son’s in the same position as you and thinks it’s absurd that the US would have any claim on him. I do worry though that his bank might get over exuberant and call him in for an interrogation because we shared an account at one point (I’m a known USC at his bank). Like you, he would then have a very difficult time producing documentation to prove he’s NOT a USC.
Thanks for the link to this chart, Duke. This could be included in our Resources — if you can, Pacifica. It does, with very close examination, help me / us see the many variations of abuses from a country with citizenship-based taxation law.
Self-determination (or on behalf of a person without requisite capacity) / as Stephen described *NON-MEANINGFUL* persons, those Accidentals Americans (unless they choose their definition of US citizenship or NOT)! OPT-IN to US citizenship (if one’s facts would permit and only with *requisite mental capacity* and full knowledge of all consequences in addition to the *perceived* benefits) would be common sense. With the adverse consequences, it should NEVER by an OPT-OUT of an acquired US citizenship, only an OPT-IN.
Though I didn’t know it / didn’t learn about it in my US public education, as the *Tables Of Transmission Requirements Over Time For Citizenship For Certain Individuals Born Abroad* indicates:
It all relates to the exceptionality expressed by the US Department of State persons the Washington, DC Immigration/Nationality lawyer I hired to HELP with my family’s situation that of other such families.
PS: I’d rail against the discriminatory *Children born out of wedlock* if that fact didn’t release some children from the absurdity. Imagine!
Hi, thanks all, lots to digest, i just wanted to say thanks for the thoughts, as i take a bit of time to work on my next round of question…. cheers, cowbell
@ Calgary,
Absolutely. This is a very useful document for people to figure out if they are USCs or not. Thanks, Duke and Calgary!
@Cowbell
I think I can provide some clarity and tie this all together. You may think you are a Usa citizen but it has not been adjudicated by the Usa state department.
Do you honestly think today you could apply for a Usa passport and be given one toot sweet?
If you apply for a Usa passport you will need to prove to the Usa state department that your mother actually lived in the Usa the required number of years.
You say she lived in the Usa the proper number of years but do you have proof of this because without the proof they will not issue you a Usa passport.
So until your case has been adjudicated you are not a Usa citizen.
Thanks Duke, I think my brain is going wonky trying to keep track of all this stuff. Great chart!
george, thank you, that is one of the clearest statements yet I have seen yet on this question, but at the end of the day….( or ten years from now) do I still have the theoretical risk of having my canadain bank account seized by this bankrupt insane USA, for not having filed these insane reporting documents, and tax returns.
it is like a poker game…???? I am a Canadian, but my blood is tainted by the one birth parent????.
“born in canada, never registered, never passport, no ties whatsoever to the US except that the one parent, m(other) was US citizen when i was born. from what i have read….” DON’T EVEN “OUT YOURSELF” TO THOSE THIEVES. Ignore the fact that you are considered dual. Just live your life as if you were Canadian.
@cowbell, no, it’ll never happen because they don’t know you exist. As far as the US is concerned you were NEVER born. Don’t tell them otherwise.
I hope you, cowbell, will stand up and say if that’s what you believe, *I am a Canadian!* (as George says, any deemed US citizenship is gum stuck on the shoes of Canadian (and other countries) children born to US parent(s) — as well as to the shoes of any who were told decades ago that they would lose their US citizenship by becoming Canadian citizens.)! Your mom? Do you believe that you are NOT *a US citizen who happens to reside in Canada*? There’s a time you just have to stand up for yourself. One way to do that is to contribute to the Canadian litigation at http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/.
Take a break reading and listen here to this compilation of the amazing process by Canada’s Parliament that legislated implementation of the Canadian IGA that allows US FATCA law to override Canadian laws and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, defining you a second-class Canadian citizen because of discrimination by national origin or the national origin of a parent.
@Cowbell;
Lets just say you make a Passport appointment at the Calgary Consulate…….
You go down there with your birth certificate and your Moms birth certificate plus your drivers license for good measure.
Here is the conversation;
Cowbell; My blood runs red, white and blue and I want to get my American Passport.
Consulate: Papers please……I see your Mother did not register your birth with the Embassy when you born. Real Americans register their babies. Why are you applying at the age of THIRTY?
Cowbelll: I love AMERICA and can sing the Star Spangled Banner in my sleep.
Consulate; I see your Mother married a Canadian and lives in Canada, when did she come to Canada? Is she one of those border babies?
Cowbell: SIR, she came to Canada when she was 21.
Consulate: You do realize a US Passport is the most valuable travel document in the world and we can not issue passports to just anyone.
Cowbell; Yes Sir, Yes Sir.
Consulate: What proof do you have that your Mother lived in the USofA for ten years before you were born?
Cowbell: My proof is my Mom says so.
@Cowbell;
In your situation, there is not conclusive evidence that you are a US Citizen.
Birth in the USA is conclusive 99.9999% of the time.
Birth abroad to two USC parents is 100% conclusive.
Birth abroad to one USC parent when the birth was not registered with the USA is indicative that the person is NOT a US Citizen!! Why? US Citizenship is so precious that no mother in her right mind would not register their baby if they lawfully could……..get what I mean?
@Cowbell…..last point….what do you tell people in the very unlikely need?
“I am a Canadian Citizen born in Canada. My mother was a USC by birth in the USA. My mother did not register my birth with the USA so that I could obtain citizenship because she did not meet the criteria to register my birth.”
No, you do not need a US passport to renounce US citizenship. What you need is the citizenship of another country, which you already have, but I don’t see why you even worry yourself. Just because your mother is an American does not automatically make you a US citizen if you are born outside of US territory. You merely have a claim to US citizenship if you should choose to exercise that option. If you choose not to exercise that option, then the US will not consider you to be a US citizen.
US citizenship is defined thusly: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” (14th Amendment to the US Constitution)
As you were neither born nor naturalized in the United States, nor are you subject to its jurisdiction, then you are definitely not a US citizen.
Sleep easy. No one will come looking for you.
Hello,
I would appreciate any advice you can give me. This is my situation:
I was born in April 1960 to Canadian parents living and working (for 2 years) in the US. After my birth my parents immediatly applied for my Canadian Born Abroad card. In Oct 1961 we moved back to Canada. I have never held a residence in the US, filed taxes, registered/voted or applied for a US passport. I have always lived in Canada, I vote, work and hold a Canadian passport. I worked for 9 years in the Mayors office of a major Canadian city. I was under the understanding that if I did not show any allegiance to the US that I would lose my right to US citizenship when I turned 18.
I wish to open a tax free saving account in Canada and my investment branch says that I have to list US citizenship on the application. I would like to confirm that I do not have any ties to US citizenship.
Can you suggest how I could get confirmation from the US government that I am not a US citizenship? I think I relinquished my US citizenship when I turned 18.
Thanks for your help,
Speedy
@Speedy, sorry, but no you did not. It doesn’t matter whether you showed any allegiance or not, you were born American and still are. As you were born there the only way to give up your citizenship is by relinquishing or renouncing. When did you work in the Mayor’s office? If you were over 18 that might be a possible relinquishment route for you. See (4)B.
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
Otherwise you will have to renounce which incurs a fee of $2,350. If you can relinquish then you might also save not only the fee (it’s free to relinquish), but you may not need to get into the hassle of exiting the US tax system. Did your parents apply for a Social Security Number (SSN) for you when they were in the States? Parents often did/do because they can then claim deductions on their US tax returns.
Speedy, The bank has no right to ask your place of birth. You should stick to your guns that you believe you are only Canadian. To do otherwise opens up a world of hurt. A number of people who post here, born in the US, who consider themselves Canadian only have demonstrated various options. Firstly, TFSAs are non-reportable so you could have one at a separate bank and it would not be reported.
Secondly, you could get into a long discussion with your bank as to why you are not American. You would self certify by signing a W8Ben that you are not a US person.
You would be supposed to provide an ‘adequate explnation as to why you don’t have a CLN.
Thirdly you could take the advice my mother-in-law gave to my wife: ‘Only lie if you have to’.
There are probably other work-arounds that I haven’t yet thought about.
@Speedy, ” I worked for 9 years in the Mayors office of a major Canadian city. I was under the understanding that if I did not show any allegiance to the US that I would lose my right to US citizenship when I turned 18.”
It would have been impossible for you to have worked in the Mayors Office for 9 years entirely under the age of 18, therefor you have worked for a “political subdivision of a foreign state” after the age of 18.
You say you did not show “allegiance to the USA.” IF that means when you accepted said employment after age 18 and you voluntarily and intentionally wanted to relinquish your US Citizenship then you lost it and you are not a US Citizenship.
What do you need to do?
1. As others have said NEVER EVER admit to being a US Citizen no matter who tells you to admit it. If you agree to it, you are SUNK.
2. Get proof of your old employment. There are lots of ways to get said proof of employment.
3. Figure out the day or month and year when said employment began.
4. Go to an attorney and swear out a statutory affidavit that on _______ you accepted employment with _______ and it was your voluntarily intention to relinquish your USC.
YOU CAN STOP AT STEP FOUR or move on……..
5. Decide if you want a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. A CLN is NOT required under US LAW, proof of the action is what is required. But a CLN can be a very handy document to have. A CLN for a relinquishment should be free. The pro and con of a CLN will be influenced by your date of relinquishment.
Just a note, did you ever enter the USA on a Canadian Passport and was it stamped? If yes that simply bolsters your relinquishment.
@ Speedy,
Re:
There is information from people who reported to Brock on their relinquishments due to government employment at federal, provincial and municipal levels (Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)(4)(A), in this document, “Reports by persons who relinquished upon taking government employment.” This document can also be accessed under “How to Relinquish” in the “Important Information” box in the Sidebar.