Entering the US
Ask your questions about Entering the US (before or after renunciation/relinquishment) here.
This thread will be focused closely on Entering the US questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Previous Entering the US thread
Previous Related Thread: Dealing with Banking, Consulate and Entering the US
Or the fact that the US is the only country from which you can make a land crossing into Canada.
Based on my experience, the US doesn’t seem to pay much attention to dual citizenship data at the border.
The only citizenship that really matters to the US is US citizenship. Any other citizenship they mostly consider to be an annoyance. All those foolish people slavishly believe that the US is the greatest country in the history of the world. That’s not surprising when you consider that most Americans will never apply for a passport and will never travel outside of the US. Legends in their own minds…..
Canadians travelling to or through U.S. should pay close attention to their withering rights’
‘Latest changes to Preclearance Agreement give U.S. officials dangerously extended power on Canadian soil’
H.M. Jocelyn · for CBC News Opinion · Posted: Dec 15, 2019 4:00 AM ET
https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-border-crossing-rights-1.5382547
Renounced long ago, I need to return to the US to find care for my elderly mother. AFAIK I am in one of the cases allowed to enter the US, having immediate family (my mother). Have people in similar positions gone to the US this summer? What documents did they need to furnish at Immigration (birth certificate? mother’s passport?)?
@V
I have no experience on this issue but a couple of thoughts. You have two separate problems:
1. Getting over the border. Currently there don’t seem to be any great restrictions on people flying to the US, it’s much easier than driving. I would try flying first, but in both cases I would bring some sort of supporting documentation to prove your story.
2. Your loss of US citizenship. The regular advice is to not say anything about renunciation, but bring a copy of your CLN in case they notice the US birthplace on your Canadian passport. As a former citizen you no longer have an absolute right to enter the US, so if someone wanted to be a dick about it, they could keep you out.
You might also want to call CBP at your planned point of entry to discuss the situation.
@V
I assumed you were Canadian. If not, whole different ball game. Depends on where you’re coming from.
Coming from Europe. I’ve often been to the US after renouncing. Only once did I have to show my CLN.
Anyway, because of Covid the US is restricting access from Europe mostly to US citizens, with some exceptions, including the one I fit under, having an immediate family member. So I’m wondering has anyone entered the US over the summer from Europe under this exception? And what documents does one need to show, if any?
I will enter via Boston. I could change to NYC.
Someone may report back, or not. In the meantime call CBP or the consulate I guess. Presumably you need an ESTA waiver to enter now?
You wrote “Think of Ghandi’s peaceful resistance to the British in India. Why not a peaceful resistance to FATCA? What is the world’s biggest debtor going to do about it?”
This raises a question I had on a FATCA-based thread on Quora – the guy I was discussing it with suggested I post here. I was wondering quite how worried one should be if one was, say born in the USA (or parents born in the USA) but no other ties to the US, and the IRS decides you owe them $600k for not filing tax returns (as I believe is plausible).
Is it a matter of being unable to fly to the US without fear of being arrested, or is the US able to take action to reclaim funds even if you stay where you are (be that Canada, the UK or elsewhere)?
The IRS has admitted their inability to do anything meaningful with the FATCA data which has been sent thus far. Bank account balances tell them very little. If you have no financial life in the USA, how would the IRS even know that you are *supposed* to file US tax returns?
The IRS would have to prove that you owed that much before any sort of arrest warrant could be issued. Again, what information would they have to do so? And would it be worth their while?
As for trying to claim funds from abroad, only five countries have agreements with the IRS, and even those countries will not assist if the person involved were also a citizen of their country at the time the ‘debt’ was incurred. Canada has an assistance agreement but will not help against their own citizens. The UK does not have an assistance agreement.
I renounced in October 2018 and never filed a single bit of US tax paperwork. I don’t lose any sleep over this. Nor do I have any fear about entering the USA.
I don’t need to repeat the previous answer so I’ll skip that for some specifics:
Of the things you fear:
1. Can the IRS determine that you owe it money? The only data it would have about you is possibly FATCA information for accounts being reported by your bank (which is not all accounts). That includes year-end balance plus interest/dividend income, but no transaction details. If that income was in the millions the IRS might eventually notice and generate a substitute return to figure out what you might owe, but no evidence as yet of the them having done so.
2. Can the IRS collect money from you outside the US? Only in very limited cases, if you live in one of five countries (Canada, Denmark, France, Netherlands, Sweden) but are not a citizen of that country. Otherwise no, unless possibly some you are some sort of massive international tax criminal and they want to spend the money it would cost to attempt to seize assets and/or extradite you.
3. Can you be arrested on entry to the US? If you owed a massive amount of money and a warrant had been issued for your arrest, then yes. Otherwise, if you owe a moderate amount of money there is a program under which you might be flagged on entry and pulled aside to gather contact information. (You might also have your US passport taken away.) Presumably in both cases one would have had a prior conversation with the IRS and be aware of the risk. Otherwise there is no risk of being detained for simple non-compliance (excepting the highly unlikely scenario in question 1 of huge FATCA numbers leading to a substitute return). US customs and immigration has no access to IRS data – they can’t check to see if you’ve been filing – and even if they did it means nothing, as many millions of people with lower incomes fall below the threshold at which one must file tax returns.
Despite all of the above, it is still well worth taking precautions to avoid being reported under FATCA. This is your first line of defence. If you are born outside the US and have another citizenship (i.e. US parentage) this is dead easy. If you were born in the US, it can be difficult in some countries, easy in others. In Canada you can open an account using ID that does not show place of birth, and simply skip over the little box on the form that asks if you are “resident in another country for tax purposes.” In other countries it’s taken more seriously, ID showing birthplace is required. US-born dual citizens sometimes have a difficult time keeping their accounts open, never mind avoiding reporting.
All in all, the risks of non-compliance are exceedingly low unless you are playing around with huge sums of money. I don’t bother with Quora but feel free to quote this answer back at anyone.
For #3 above, “moderate” means in excess of $50,000 owed.
The IRS is incapable of linking foreign bank accounts without a social security number attached to the account. If the “foreign” account holder never submitted a ssn, then there is no chance
the IRS could determine that there were taxes owed. Their primary target is individuals living in the US with hidden foreign assets. Persons living elsewhere with no US ties have nothing to fear.
I may be crossing the border more frequently as I might move to a border town. However I have crossed into USA my whole life on my canadian passport even though I was born in the USA. Left USA when I was 1 and now mid fifties. I have never been told by a border agent that I need a US passport to cross into the USA but I have read that by law US citizens do need a US passport. So does that mean the US border has no idea I am an american citizen even thogh the place of birth is USA. Will I at some point be forced to apply for a US passport to enter the USA? I assume they dont care about tax issues either unless the IRS thinks you owe millions..I am very middle class so dont fall in that category. If I apply for a US passport will that flag the IRS that I should be paying taxes??
@johnny w.
If the customs agent notices your US birthplace they will assume you are US citizen. Whether or not they decide to hassle you about entering on a non-US passport depends on the individual agent. If they do, generally Canadians are allowed to proceed after a “lecture” about getting a US passport. They can’t really force you to get a US passport because its a bit of a catch-22; if they believe you are a US citizen they have to let you in. I suppose they could let you in and then charge you with breaking their passport law but I’ve never heard of that happening.
But with Trump taking over, things are different and what was allowed in the past may not be the case going forward. If you have never filed US taxes the IRS doesn’t know you exist so no worries on that front. To the best of my knowledge a passport application does not trigger an IRS notification.
With their enhanced vetting, now is probably not a good time to travel to the US. Better to wait for a while to see how things develop and a new normal is established.
I live near a border town and have been a “frequent flyer” in the past but with Trump in I’m not setting foot in the US until the situation has stabilized.
My wife was born in Florida. Starting 40 years ago we have crossed the border over 150 times. She used her Canadian passport each and every time.
Once, about 35 years ago an agent said “you could get a US passport” He was trying to be helpful by telling us that dual citizenship was now allowed.
They have a record of each time you cross. If an agent were to admonish you, you would reply “ I left when I was an infant and believed I lost my USness when I became Canadian” or something along those lines.
Or get a US passport- probably not straightforward in the Trump era. Don’t start with the IRS.
@Johnny w, my understanding (someone please correct me if I am wrong) is that you need a SSN to apply for a US passport. If you do not already have a SSN, I would probably avoid getting one – who knows what can of worms that might open up.
Ok thats pretty much my thinking as well. I have not moved yet but likely in the next 6 months and was likely going to be crossing the border more often. But under Trump it seems a lot of things may change and it may get way more complicated crossing the border. On the other had as maz pointed out it they really believe I am a US citizen they cant really deny me entry. I thought when I was younger that having the dual citizenship would simplidy my life and it has done the opposite. I dont want to apply for a US passport as that could put me more on fhe IRS radar or the US govt radar in general. .But if they start telling me to get a US passport and I dont then at some point maybe they will fine me or charge me with something. Is it a crime to not have a US passport as a US citizen and what is the charge?
Not a crime. All they could possibly do is waste considerable time in secondary and maybe perhaps deny you entry
@jonnyw
So you’re aware, you can apply for a US passport without an SSN – you enter all zeroes and indicate which country you are applying from or something like that. In your case I would just keep on doing what you’ve been doing. Someone might eventually notice and tell you that you are a US citizen and need a passport, but they don’t have access to IRS data so won’t lecture you about taxes. You would respond by giving them a blank look and saying “Oh, thanks for letting me know.”
I travelled to the US on a Canadian passport with US birthplace, only once in over a decade was it noticed at the airport. I was heading down on a business trip and got into the usual is it “work” or is it “meetings” discussion then eventually he noticed and asked if I was a US citizen. I shrugged and said yes and pulled out an expired US passport and they let me through with a warning to renew it, which I ignored.
I’ve subsequently renounced and not visited the US since. Under the current regime I have no desire to do so. When and if I ever do, I will fly rather than drive over the land border. If something goes wrong in airport pre-clearance you can turn around and walk back out, you’re still in Canada. If something goes wrong at a border crossing, you’re on a bus to a camp in the desert, or a flight to El Salvador. No thanks.
PS to above
Under US law, all US citizens must use a US passport to enter the US. However, the law is not enforced – there is no defined penalty for breaking this law. What this means in practice is that you’ll be told to obtain a US passport next time. As others have pointed out, there’s a Catch-22: if they believe you to be a US citizen, they cannot deny you entry.
Does the IRS monitor comments on forums in big social media platforms. One time in a forum I was wondering about whether or not using a us passport was really necessary to cross border and I said something like I would prefer not to get one because not wanting to get on IRS radar for tax implications . Someone there said that they can track you down.
@complex222
Obtaining a US passport doesn’t put you on the IRS radar. Supposedly the IRS is notified when passports are issued, but they don’t appear to do anything proactive with this data.
@Ron,
I don’t think DoS notifies IRS of passports issued. I know that DoS forwards a copy of each Certificate of Loss of Nationality issued, but don’t recall reading the same regarding passports. IRS doesn’t seem to do anything with the CLN data, no one’s ever reported hearing anything from them.
Yeah that’s what I kind of understood. It was more my comments that got me worried. Implying that I want to be off the IRS radar for tax implications. One of the respondents said the IRS could see that and maybe investigate.