Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Polly
IDK. Why is our, “superior race” so pathetic & destructive?
@ JapanT,
I like that quote and I like your statement as well. Democracy doesn’t have autopilot. One of my favorites about politicians is: politicians and diapers should both be changed regularly and for the same reason. I have seen this attributed to Mark Twain, but I cannot find a reputable source for this quote. I will would not say he said it.
It brings to mind a meme that I have seen floating around on the internet, purported to have been said by Abraham Lincoln, “The problem with quotes found on the internet, is that they are often not true.” 😉
I feel like that quote may also not be true.
Cheers,
Rocky
Also, let’s not forget that:
39% of all statistics are just made up garbage.
@Rocky
The first quote I used I first heard it as being said by G. Washington. Looking for the source, I learned that the idea is an old one but originally more related to passion and not government. But, it is, if the source is to be trusted found in the publication I cite.
Regardless of who said it and when, it is hard to argue against.
You’re Lincolno “quote” is one of my all time favorites.
The quote you give attributed to Twain is also true regardless who said it.
@PierreD,
The the great philosopher Homer said when being interviewed by Kent Brockman, “Oh people can come up with statistics to prove anything Kent. Forfty percent of all people know that.”
@JapanT,
I concur with everything you have said.
Cheers,
Rocky
Re the DS-4079, it wasn’t required for renunciations and, though widely used, wasn’t used by all consulates even before 2015. DoS made the point more emphatic and stated it more clearly in a 2015 revision to s. 7 FAM 1264 (excerpt below) of the procedure manual. Hopefully this revision has led to more consulates dropping it, and will continue to. In Canada, it was used by some (most, if I remember correctly), but not all, consulates, until they amalgamated procedure in 2016, at which time the 4079 became required across the board, but was finally replaced with a short questionnaire later in 2016 (current iteration, FYI).
So I went for my renouncement first appointment the initial interview today at the US consulate in London. They threw all sorts of comments at me to see if I would freak out. I did not I was calm and courteous in answering their questions despite them leaving and coming back to ask me such three different times. One of which was that in my choosing to become stateless and picking up citizenship in the UK in 5 years when it is allowed (please do not ask or judge, my circumstances are such that this was and is my only option) they said that the UK could send me back to the US even as stateless. So my question is can they do such? UK has a specific process for filing stateless and staying and I Am well established here in the UK and my understanding is that once you renounce citizenship they can send you to another country perhaps but not to the country you renounce citizenship in as you are not allowed back in. I feel it was the consulate officer’s way of bullying and harassing me (that and other things she said to me) yet I was just asking to be sure. They said I Am to email them again so they can give me my final appointment, which I have done and I await word. Just wonder if anyone else has any knowings on this question. Thanks.
@Beingfree
I’m not a lawyer, but I, too, was subjected to a very intense interview full of threats, both spoken and implied, when I applied for my CLN.
The way I see it is, they are required by their own manuals to tell that you could be deported. Whether that is true or not is not really relevant for them.
The UK signed the UNHCR – Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons, which states in Article 31 expulsion:
1. The Contracting States shall not expel a stateless person lawfully in their territory save on grounds of national security or public order.
2. The expulsion of such a stateless person shall be only in pursuance of a
decision reached in accordance with due process of law. Except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, the stateless person shall be allowed to submit evidence to clear himself, and to appeal to and be represented for the purpose before competent authority or a person or persons specially designated by the competent authority.
3. The Contracting States shall allow such a stateless person a reasonable
period within which to seek legal admission into another country. The Contracting States reserve the right to apply during that period such internal measures as they may deem necessary.
If you haven’t done anything to threaten the UK’s security and haven’t done anything that would cause the US to apply for your extradition, why would or could they deport you to the US.
With the current US immigration policies, would the US even allow you back in, if they did?
@Beingfree & UnforgivenToo: For what it’s worth, New Zealand still hasn’t been able to deport Harmon Wilfred back to the US.
Basically, Wilfred renounced US citizenship in 2005, and stayed in NZ on a business visa until 2011 but couldn’t get it renewed. His wife departed voluntarily and went to Canada where she’s from, but he stayed on in NZ. Now NZ are refusing to let her come back even as a tourist, but they’ve made no progress on deporting Wilfred himself despite years of discussion with the US embassy.
2014 article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/9807400/The-illegal-alien-no-one-wants
2016 article: https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/us-help-deport-wilfred-sought
Beingfree –
Here’s a case. Credit to Eric, I think. Not so much stateless and deported, but stateless and not deportable from US. Strange story.
Oops. Thomas Jolley. Here’s the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jolley
As additional insurance against being admitted to the USA, he could always put a few Moslem prayer videos on his smartphone, and an imam or two in the contacts list.
@UnforgivenToo @Eric and @usxcanada Thank you. This is what I thought. I appreciate you help with this.
re: Renunciation appointments, Canada
1. Submission of docs and request for renunciation appointment, Montréal, Canada: January 5, 2017
2. Response with date for appointment: Feb. 16
3. Appointment date: mid-June 2017
Since i had asked for anyone else’s timeframe (and received no replies) here is mine.
For the record, my request for Vancouver went in May 2016, response with appointment date one month later, appointment was in September, COLN received 2 weeks after US election, dated the date of the election. Glad, not sad.
Thanks very much, Duchesse and fn0, for this information. It definitely helps people have an idea of what to expect. I’ll add it to the time chart in the Consulate Report Directory
I’ve been pouring over this site for days now to try to determine what the best course of action is for my situation and would appreciate any input. I want to try to make this brief but I’m finding it difficult, so bear with me, because there’ are some “fine print” matters which, for me, may or may not make the difference to whether I can relinquish now, or have to renounce, AND whether or not I should be more worried about filling, versus NOT filing, because I’m under the threshold for tax liability, FBAR reporting and FACTA, at least in terms of how much I understand them (and I’ve never had a letter, or warning, etc.)
So – I live in Europe and have done since 2001. I left the USA in 2001, acquired UK citizenship in 2005.
Last time I used a USA passport for travel (anywhere) was 2004 to go to the USA (in the months just before my citizenship was finalized), as I had to go back due to my grandfather passing away.
The last time I went to the USA in ANY capacity was in 2005 and that was on my new UK/European passport – customs gave me no problems other than to question my accent, but they weren’t aggressive about it. My last returns were filed in 2004, and I owed no tax as I earned well under the threshold (I owed no tax for the years prior either, I was an “EZ” simple kind of person with an “EZ” simple kind of filing life). I didn’t think anything else of this at the time because in my eyes, I had relinquished, and the only information I had on the process was prior to 2004 in any case. (During this time I had my old US passport, but never touched it, and it was set to expire in 2010, which was my plan, to just let it time out, as I considered myself British/European the moment I became so, because it was something I felt passionately about, not for tax reasons, (I’ve never been wealthy) but simply because that is where I felt I belonged.
Every single thing I’ve done since 2005 – with one exception, has been in line with seeing myself as British and NOT American. As for that one exception:
In 2009, my father wanted us to go visit them in the USA once more and had asked me to do so me online hunting for ideas. In the process of that, a forum poster (in what had started as a conversation about travel in general) told me that in NO uncertain terms I had broken the law in 2005, and that I was wrong to use my UK passport (which made no sense to me as (1) customs gave me no trouble and (2) I thought I was doing the RIGHT thing as a newly minted British citizen. This completely freaked me out at the time, and in a state of duress and outright panic, (and ignorance), I renewed the US passport. I didn’t like what I’d been told, but I also was afraid I’d already screwed up. I wish I had been more focused on fact-finding then, and not panic, but my singular fear was not being able to see my family – OR we saved up to go, only to be told we can’t come in (or worse, that I would be in trouble already and didn’t know it.) Emphatically I did NOT want this passport – I was uncomfortable about it. Ironically – or tragically – I never used it, because my parents opted to go to the Bahamas instead, and we met them there, AND I used my UK passport for it, since it bypassed my USA worries altogether.
And for what it’s worth – I never even SIGNED that passport – I have NEVER used it; it even still feels “new”. I literally stuck it in a drawer for the last several years (going on 7 now).
What prompted me to deal with all this now is my dad passed away in December, so not only was that Bahamas trip was the last time I saw him, but this question of what the hell was I supposed to do about all this reared my head again – an unwelcome emotion when what I should have felt was only grief for my mom’s sake, and for the loss of my dad. I am SICK of this hanging over me but I don’t know what I’m supposed to do to protect myself. I don’t think I should have to file FBARS as I’ve never had over 10K in an account, and I only have one. I don’t think I should have to file anything because I don’t OWE a damn thing and the country I live in now has higher taxes anyway, so anyone that thinks I’d do this to evade paying is crazy. I have no assets, I own no home. I live simply.
But now – I want closure, and I don’t know what I should do. Do I try to relinquish back to 2005, seeing that there’s all this horrible grey area between 2004-2008 expatriates? And if I do, am I best off leaving it at THAT and getting on with life after all these years? Or is that even unwise, i.e. should I not do ANYTHING, let my US passport expire and be done with it – even if I have to go back one last time for my mother’s sake (though this isn’t likely, as she knows I don’t even WANT to go?).
I’ve had no bank problems, but that may be down to fortunate timing as I’ve had my only account for many years now, prior to 2009, and I opened it as a British person, who pays taxes in my country of residence.
But – only now am I able to save a bit with my partner, and I’m afraid that if I (or we) went over 10K in the future, it would open a can of worms…..maybe I’ve had no letter only because I’ve never had anything to flag up in the first place, or maybe it’s because I opened it so many years ago that, being on a UK passport, it never fell into a net in the first place.
So – I know well that a case can be made for doing nothing, as much as anything, perhaps…
But suffice it to say, I’ve made myself sick with worry the more I read up on everything that I had NO idea about since 2001 – why would I have kept up with the laws of a country of which I felt I was no longer a part? I had NO idea that the rules changed in 2004 and again in 2008, I had never heard of FACTA or FBARS, I only found out about all this now.
As for how I never knew – well, this was all exacerbated perhaps by timing. I see now how things really changed in mid-2004, which was literally the final months prior to my UK citizenship – when we moved to Caithness, my head was only full of what I knew prior to 2004, which as I understand now was a completely different set of rules – and I lived in a very remote corner of Scotland from 2003-2006 – no embassy was remotely convenient, and even if it was, I had no clue that I was meant to formally take some action to make my status clearer.
One thing I do NOT feel remotely comfortable doing, at all, is filing returns when I made a clean break from that in line with my UK passport/citizenship being awarded, as I feel that falls into the same trap as my renewal might be. Why would I file if I think I’m not a citizen, etc. etc.
So for those who have made it this far, I ask your thoughts on this:
1)Do you feel my chances for a backdated CLN/relinquishment are COMPLETELY blown given I renewed that one time, even if it’s unsigned/unused and I can explain (and prove I went to the Bahamas just after renewal on my UK passport instead?)
2) If so, am I wiser to simply renounce to get a CLN, or just ….do nothing?
3) In either case, if I get a CLN, am I opening unnecessary “cans of worms” filing ANYTHING, or would it maybe be best to file the 8854 with some sort of cover letter? (Ironically if I’d known about the 8854 in 2005, it would have been a nice clean break as I owed literally nothing.)
I asked the embassy for the info pack so that I can begin this process – but before I actually make that leap – I would love some feedback on my situation. I do realise in the end that I have to decide, and that all options carry risks, which is why I need some insight into what others think.
Thank you for any thoughts and time. I had not thought of myself as American, not even when I renewed that passport, for me it was just about fear and not seeing my family. This entire process has NOT endeared me to the USA more, I can only say, it’s heartbreaking, reading some of what’s happened to people here and I’m only glad I left when I did.
@merrick
Absolutely you can relinquish, despite getting a new blue book. If you explain why you got it, it shouldn’t be a problem. Others have been panicked into the same decision. You intended to relinquish when you got your British citizenship and intent is the key so it will be backdated to 2005. It will, unfortunately, cost you $2,350 to get the CLN though, even for a backdated relinquishment.
As for filing, if you didn’t meet the reporting thresholds for a tax return or FBAR then just file an 8854 with a lot of zeros on it and a letter explaining that you haven’t met the filing requirements.
@merrick
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with some of Medea Fleecestealer’s advice. Back when it was free to apply to relinquish, it would’ve been worth trying but that’s no longer the case.
Your request to relinquish could very well be turned down. Regardless of whether you ever signed or used your last US passport, the fact is that you applied for it after becoming a British citizen, and only someone who considers themselves an American would ever apply for an American passport.
Moreover, there’s no real advantage in your particular case to backdating the relinquishment, so you’d be taking a risk (i.e., having your application refused and wasting $2350) for no real benefit.
Unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as indications of mental illness and/or tax evasion, an application for renouncement is pretty much guaranteed to be approved. Since the fee for renouncing is the same as relinquishing, you’re better off applying to do the former.
As for the final paperwork, I would strongly recommend you file the 8854, plus five years of returns and FBARs (the $10,000 threshold is aggregate, and going over means reporting on all your accounts; in other words, if you have one account with $10 in it and the other account has $9,995 then that’s over the threshold, and you have to report on both accounts). Otherwise, the IRS automatically considers you a covered expatriate even if your net worth is well under the $2 million threshold. From what you’ve told us, you unlikely to owe the IRS any taxes so it’s worth severing ties cleanly.
@merrick
I will elaborate a little on Medea’s comments: On that day in 2005 when you acquired UK citizenship if it was your intent to simultaneously lose your US citizenship you have not been a US citizen since that day. This is in accordance with actual US expatriation law. The fact that you later obtained a US passport argues against such a claim of loss of US citizenship but is not fatal to your claim because you felt you were under duress to obtain one. The fact that you never once actually used that passport but instead chose to do your traveling on your UK passport argues in favor of your claim. In short, if your facts are as you have stated, you “self-relinquished” on that day in 2005.
Your behavior since becoming a UK citizen also supports your claim because you have done nothing that a US citizen would normally do during that time. You have not filed any US tax returns or FBARs and you have not traveled on that US passport. You have lived (and filed taxes presumably) in the UK. You bank in the UK. Your entire life is lived like any other ordinary UK citizen and resident.
The bottom line is this: you are not presently a US citizen and haven’t been one since 2005. The only question is whether you need a piece of paper (a CLN) to document that fact. My advice? Do nothing, save yourself $2350 (not to mention the hassle) and continue to live your life as a UK citizen. The worst that can happen is that a bank sends some of your info off to the IRS but what can the IRS do with that info? The answer: not a heck of a lot. Probably won’t happen anyway. For God’s sake don’t spend a lot of money trying to fix a problem that can’t be fixed. (Your US birthplace is at the root of it all).
I base my advice on my own situation: I, too, self-relinquished in 2012 when I became a Canadian. I chose not to pay the outrageous $2350 fee for a CLN. I stopped filing US returns and FBARs. I didn’t file a final 1040 or Form 8854. I have had no trouble with my banking, I haven’t heard a peep from the IRS, and I regularly travel to the US on my Canadian passport with no issues. Things may be different in the future but there is no way to predict what, if anything might change. Even possessing a CLN is no guarantee our lingering “USness” will not cause future problems.
@merrick
Take a deep breath and calm down. This is not a huge deal. Relax. You are in no hurry. There is no rush to make a decision.
As mentioned, there is no real-world difference between renunciation and relinquishment now that both cost $2350. So don’t waste time worrying about the fact that you renewed your passport. As far as the US government is concerned, you are still a citizen.
It is the case that if you are a US citizen, you must use a valid US passport to enter the US. That is the law. This particular law is, however, very rarely enforced. Lots and lots of folks, myself included, have had zero to minimal trouble entering the US with a foreign passport showing a US birthplace – no questions asked. You got away with it in 2005. But that’s not to say it won’t cause grief one day. (I had the lecture once, but have continued to use my Canadian passport since, with no trouble.) If you need access to the US, be prepared for the possibility that you will have problems entering on a UK passport unless you also have a CLN to prove that you’ve renounced. It’s not likely, but it’s possible.
If you do renounce, you can decide whether or not you want to go through with the full tax compliance regime. Some do, some don’t. Sounds like you won’t owe any money, so it’s a case of do you want to bother with all the paperwork. Your decision might be impacted by the complication of US assets, income, property or expected inheritance.
If you do not renounce, you can decide whether or not you want to become tax compliant. This decision may also be impacted by the complication of US assets, income, property or expected inheritance.
Your biggest concern, as UK resident, is whether you will lose access to banking services due to your US citizenship. If you’ve used a UK passport to open accounts and your financial institutions did not ask about your place of birth, you may have escaped. If, on the other hand, you are asked to confirm US citizenship – and you can’t get away with merely lying and telling them you’re not – then it’s possible that information about you could be reported to the US under FATCA. However, it sounds like your accounts may have a small enough balance that nothing would be reported. If you think that you have been identified via FATCA, this does not automatically mean that you should come into compliance. I’d say there’s a good chance you’d never hear from the IRS.
In your situation, unless you’re facing imminent grief from your bank, I would do absolutely nothing. Let sleeping dogs lie. Stay off the radar.
I appreciate all the comments thus far, though it is agonising to some extent that they are all in a degree of dissent with each other (if only because it mirrors my own agonised thinking).
My concerns are simply that:
1)I don’t want to go to the USA again but if I had to see my mother or brother for any reason (likely the last time I’d go at all),
I want to be able to do so in good conscience ON MY UK PASSPORT. When my dad died in December, that whole renewal/what to do
crisis reared it’s head again, and that is what prompted me to dig into this stuff once and for all…..only to find out that I bloody well
wish I never had…
2)I don’t have any assets or money but I’m only now able to save a bit and I’m trying to do so with my partner of 10 years. I’ve never had any banking problems (I am not a UK resident anymore, I moved to the EU mainland in 2008 and have been resident here since then).
Merrick
I would agree with Maz.
If you have had no banking problems then I would sit tight, no one has asked you for a cln and if they do you are permitted to offer another explanation ie you relinquished when you became British as that was your intention.
If you have to travel back to the US presumably you would have to apply for an ESTA, at that stage you will see if there is a problem.
The Republicans have pledged to repeal Fatca, so why not wait and see.?
On the other hand if you feel you want the freedom of an official cln then I would go for a renunciation rather than a postdated relinquishment as if it is refused you will end up paying twice. If your income is below the threshold you may qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion. It may be that you could do the 5years of back filing yourself, plus 6 years of fbars and 8854, keep it simple and I very much doubt you would ever hear from them again.
Well there is no one correct answer, but that doesn’t meant that you can’t be relaxed about it. Don’t agonize.
1. Why are you so determined to travel on your UK passport? If you have a US passport, no reason not to use it for as long as it’s valid. They don’t check your tax status at the airport. The only way you can use your UK passport fully legally – I’m not sure what you mean by “in good conscience” because really conscience doesn’t enter into it – then you’ll need to renounce and carry a copy of your CLN. That’ll cost you $2350 and possibly some tax paperwork.
2. If you are living elsewhere in the EU, the question of whether you need to do anything really comes down to banking access. Your US birthplace may present problems, depending on where you are living and what you are doing financially. If it isn’t causing problems, I wouldn’t do anything. If it does cause problems, deal with it when they arise: your basic options at that point are to renounce or sign some forms and agree to FATCA reporting (which, again, doesn’t necessarily mean you need to bother with tax compliance).