Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
BC Doc, it is not YOU who are doing this for the young adult, the young adult is doing it for themselves.
Otherwise it would possibly not considered to be relinquishing!!!
Be careful of the terms and make sure your kids know!!
@Kathy
Congratulations! I had my app in Calgary May 28 and just received mine back dated relinquishment based on my federal government job. I was also a dual citizen, who believed I lost it when I turned 21 and did not move to the US or vote or get a social security number. I rec’d mine Dec11 in the mail no call or email to confirm my address, just my prepaid package in the mail box. Once I was brave enough to open it I could not stop smiling and jumping up and down with joy. And texting and calling everyone I could think of to tell them I am free.
Congrats @Canadiangirl.403 and @Kathy!
And @all, I’m admiring all the creative brainstorming going on here at this thread that is helping people with potential avenues to explore – like the Irish citizenship path.
Hello All. I’ve never posted here although have very much appreciated all the information that others have contributed on this site. My situation is this:
-Born in the US to Canadian parents in 1970
-Only US document is my birth certificate (I’ve never had a Social Security Number or US Passport)
-Left the US at the age of 1
From what I gather, I am not eligible to relinquish my US Citizenship, so I will need to pay up and renounce. I am loathe to go through the process of applying for a Social Security Number so that I can file my income tax with the IRS. Does anyone know if I can file my income tax without a SSN?
Some on this site seem to be saying that one can renounce before dealing with the IRS, but I have heard from one other person who say that the Consulate “likes” to see several years of tax filing before considering the renunciation application. Any advice on this would be appreciated.
@Chrispy,
So, you’ve never been in the military, or worked for the city, province or federal government? Your Canadian passport shows you were born in the US? You have a Canadian certifiate of birth abroad?
FATCA makes it more difficult to hide and do nothing, leaving tax compliancy and renunciation as the only option if you want to do something about it. Some here will tell you do do nothing, and never enter the US again. This is an option if your bank(s) never ask you if you are a US person, but a problem if they do.
Youi are not asked about taxes when you renounce at a consulate. Where did you hear otherwise? Certainly not on this website that I ever noticed. One of the forms that you sign indicates in a long list of points that you are still obligated for tax filing, but they don’t ask or care if you have past tax filings or not. They _do_ notify the IRS about your existance and renunciation.
My own mother renounced at age 90 before submitting any of the required 5 years of tax filings.
There is the suggestion that you can try to find some level of government employment now, and save yourself $2350 when you renounce by claiming that you took the job knowing and intending that it would relinquish your US citizenship. It’s not known if a 2-day job at an election returning station is a valid claim. It’s been tried, but there are no results from Washington DC about this particular relinquishment claim.
@chrispy, have you worked for the Canadian government at any time or been in the Canadian military? If so, you may be able to make a case for relinquishment that way.
If you’re a US citizen then you must file using an SSN. However, you need to decide whether you even want to file or not. This may depend on how often you may visit the States in future, etc.
No, the embassy/consulate are not allowed to ask about your tax filing situation because it’s none of their business. The two are completely separate matters. You can renounce before doing any filing, this is what I did last year. And the embassy/consulate doesn’t “consider” a renunciation. You make an appointment, go to the embassy/consulate and swear the Oath of Renunciation in front of the Consul. There is no consideration to be done on their part. You’re confusing this with a relinquishment where the embassy/consulate will weigh all the various factors before making their recommendation to Washington or not. When you renounce they have no such role, even though in Canada and many other countries they still insist on using form DS-4079 to help them determine whether or not you have relinquished your citizenship by committing an expatriating act. When you renounce you are committing one of those expatriating act and the Consul acts only as a witness to this.
These are the two forms which are used when you renounce:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
and this is the Possible Loss of Citizenship form they use for the assessment.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
The main thing is not to rush into anything. Take your time and research everything, from the whether I can relinquish or renounce to whether or not you personally want/need to file any US tax returns.
@ Chrispy,
Re taxes and renouncing, some general info.
A person’s citizenship (or lack of it) is not dependent on their tax status. The consulate doesn’t want to see tax forms. Not their department.
A person has until June 15th of the year following renunciation to wrap things up with IRS (form 8854, 1040s etc for the five years preceding renunciation and the partial year of renunciation). If they never do this, that could cause problems with IRS, a particular concern if one has assets in the US, but their CLN remains valid and they remain a non-US-citizen. So, with a 2015 renunciation, one has til June 15th, 2016, to complete filings with IRS. That gives you plenty of time at this point to decide what to do or not do about filing.
Dept of States’s only involvement/connection with tax is the following:
(1) At the consulate the person signs DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences; one of the 12 items on it is Item 10, that renouncing “… may not exempt me from US tax income taxation [etc] …”
(2) Dept of State is to provide IRS with a copy of each CLN they issue as per DoS Interagency Coordination and Reporting Requirements, 7 FAM 1243(a).
(3) The questionnaire, DS-4079, at q. 13 (e) asks “Do you file US income or other tax returns?” [DS-4079 is used to determine if a relinquishment actually occurred when the person claims it did. DoS does not require the 4079 for renunciation, but allows consulates to use it for renunciation files as well, if they wish. So, some consulates use the 4079 for renunciations and some don’t.] The tax question on the DS-4079 is there as an indicator of your ties and connections to the US, which is important if you’re claiming to have relinquished some time ago. But it has no relevance either way to a renunciation.
I’d like to reiterate Medea Fleecestealer’s closing paragraph — it’s really good advice: “The main thing is not to rush into anything. Take your time and research everything, from the whether I can relinquish or renounce to whether or not you personally want/need to file any US tax returns.”
Crispy You are getting good advice here. Better than from some lawyers and accountants. First decision renounce or carry on as you have for the past 43 yrs. At the moment, the IRS knows nothing about you.
You do NOT need to file any taxes before renouncing. Avoid OVDI. It was meant for criminals.
A social security number is a pain in the rear end to get.
If you choose to renounce, you then will need to decide whether or not to file any tax returns and the 8854 exit tax form.
Some have chosen not to. We don’t know whether or not they have been hassled by the IRS.
If you choose to file, you would be a dual citizen from birth. You would be free from 2/3 of the exit tax requirements. I.E. the net worth test and the annual tax due test.
You would not be free from the requirement to file 5 yrs. of back taxes.
Take your time to make informed decisions. Good luck.
@crispy, I don’t know your situation but others have also relinquished having worked for municipal, provincial and the federal government. If you did any of these it’s worth gold.
Lots of good advice here. Take your time is really good advice.
Thanks very much for all the great information. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find anything that I’ve done that would qualify as an expatriating act (no military involvement, or government employment at any level, or treasonous activity :)). Thanks @Medea Fleecestealer for the clarification about swearing the Oath of Renunciation and it being in and of itself an expatriating act.
I’m not really worried about the tax issue in that I know that I don’t owe any US tax, so I don’t mind filing, but I had been worried that my tax status would interfere with my renunciation. Thanks for clearing that up.
@Medea Fleecestealer and @pacifica777 thanks for the links – I’ll have a look through those documents to better understand what lies ahead for me.
I would be tempted to take a “wait and see” attitude, but my aged parents would like to have my name on their accounts in case something happens to them. That would be dangerous with my current status!
@chrispy, it’s definitely down as US law. This is taken from the website of the US embassy here in Switzerland. They’ve been dealing with hundreds of renunciations in the last few years so have felt the need to post on the website on the subject.
“A. THE IMMIGRATION & NATIONALITY ACT
Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)) is the section of law that governs the ability of a United States citizen to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship. That section of law provides for the loss of nationality by voluntarily performing the following act with the intent to relinquish his or her U.S. nationality:
“(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state , in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State” (emphasis added).
B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
1.appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2.in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3.sign an oath of renunciation
Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect.”
http://bern.usembassy.gov/service/renunciation5.html
No, you definitely don’t want your name on their accounts until after you renounce. If your name is added and you do decide to file tax returns then you would also need to file a FBAR form for all accounts in your name or which you have signatory rights on if the aggregate total of those accounts comes to more than $10,000 at any time of the year.
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-FBAR
As Portland PLC said, IF you decide to file you’ll need to wrap up with an 8854 as shown here.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
If you don’t file then you would be considered a “covered expatriate”. What that would mean to you personally depends on things like whether you ever plan to travel to the States in future, etc. Something else to investigate before making your decisions.
I don’t know which embassy/consulate you plan to use, but if you look here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
You can read up on other peoples’ experiences when they went to renounce or relinquish. Click on the Consular Report Directory link. Note that the embassies/consulates in Canada have now dropped the need for a second appointment, but that there is a several months delay to get an appointment at most of them due to demand. So I suggest you try and make an appointment to get that side organised first, then decide what you want to do about the tax once the renuncation date is booked. The sooner you renounce the quicker you can put your name on your parents’ accounts to ease their minds.
@Crispy, as the above have stated you need to get out of dodge…yesterday.
The other alternative is to find some government job that you can hire into and work at on the vacation time from your day job and use that as a relinquishment.
This would be a bare bones MINIMUM solely so you could state you are not a USC. To use language of Obamacare, this is the Bronze Plan.
Platinum is fresh and shiny renouncing at the Consulate.
In regards to your tax situation, lay it all out by hand/software first. If you have any investments or retirement type accounts your simple tax situation might be a big tax problem.
We have learned that many people who saying being an expat is simple tax wise……actually have been doing things wrong….ignorance is bliss.
@ chrispy
You’ve been getting a lot of good advice, one of which is to proceed slowly so you know what you’re doing, but there is one thing you might want to do before anything else: make a appointment to renounce (or relinquish if that becomes possible) at the embassy or consulate. It is unlikely that you’ll get an appointment for at least several months, and that will give you a lot of time to work out the details of your situation. You can always cancel or reschedule later if you want. Although there’s not a lot of data, I believe that I have seen a couple of posters saying they were able to reschedule without having to go back to the end of the queue.
One other thing that someone more knowledgable may know about. While a US citizen needs an SSN No. to file US taxes, I’m pretty sure a non-citizen uses an ITIN. So if your renounce before filing any US taxes, I would think you can no longer apply for an SSN and could instead apply for an use an ITIN, which I believe is much easier to get than an SSN. Hopefully somebody will correct me if I am wrong about this.
Good luck.
@Chrispy, concur with TokyoRose…..get in the que for a renouncing appointment.
If you were to be able to relinquish before the appointment, nothing would be lost. Had you already relinquished and then scheduled a renouncing appointment then you might have some splaining……
Yes, I believe that is correct and if you renounce first then you would need an ITIN not a SSN and I think you can file a packet with an application at the same time. But again, investigate further…..
But again, if you have any kind of retirement plan or other Canadian tax favored plan or have owned some mutual funds or have sold a home…then you are complicated…..ditto with lottery winnings.
Now that you’ve all got me thinking hard about my situation… I do recall that I had a short-term job with a provincial government many years ago, so I really should explore the possibility of applying for a CLN on that basis. I’ll have to do some more digging around here on the IBS site to see what I would need to do to prepare for that exit route.
@Chrispy…..B-I-N-G-O.
You need proof of that employment. But Provincial employment would qualify. Kathy on another thread worked for a City and had the Clerk write a memo that was a “political subdivision thereof.”
You may need to order employment records from some archive.
Best of luck, but THIS is your GOLDEN TICKET.
@Chrispy,
What year? Do you have a record of it? Some employers must destroy records 7 or 10 years after you leave their empoy. CRA T4 records go back to about 1980; CPP records go back to when you first worked after age 18 (or 1965 or so when the plan started). The best is something from the actual employer but find what you can. Try their pension plan holder’s records if you contributed to a pension plan.
@chrispy, remember it’s really important when you sort things out that you worked for the government knowing you would lose your citizenship as a consequence. Your intent is extremely important. Good luck on your search.
@chrispy, that could be very good news for you. Remember too that, when you actually get to the embassy/consulate, they may say they don’t think you have a case and will recommend refusal of the relinquishment. You can insist that they send your file to Washington for a final decision – this has been used successfully by some of the IBS posters here to get their relinquishments accepted. So, if necessary, be firm and insist they send the file on.
However, do note that of course this will delay said acceptance and, if also refused by Washington, will mean you’ll need to make another appointment to renounce. All of which will delay getting you out of the system and getting your name on your parents’ accounts. So you need to decide whether you think your case is strong enough to go for relinquishment or whether you’d be better to just renounce. Depending on how far back it was that you worked for the provincial government you may not even need to file any returns. So that could be another reason to push for the relinquishment. See this link for more info:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
@WhatamI, “Try their pension plan holder’s records if you contributed to a pension plan.”
Clever!!
@Chrispy, as you believe that you have a valid relinquishment absent documents yet, it might not be wise to schedule a renunciation appointment as that may count against you. (Conjecture at this point.)
@Cheryl, absolutely correct on intent!! You are learning. 🙂
@MediaFleece….to reiterate your comment, Chrispy should go in with a cover letter to his appointment w/forms stating exactly what he did, when he did, why he did it, quote US Law and 7 Fam. He needs to show that he knows what he is doing and make it more difficult to refuse.
@Chrispy
You’re getting some very good advice here. Take your time.
To get an appointment, I think you have to fill out the DS-4079 and one other form first. If that is the case, you may want to wait until you are sure whether you have a case for relinquishment. If you fill it out for a renouncement and then try to switch it to a past relinquishment, there will likely be questions about intent and knowledge of the relinquishing act.
As well, don’t let anyone try to convince you that you can’t relinquish based on government employment if you’re dual from birth or you didn’t swear to an oath. It can be intimidating at the appointment if they try to tell you’re wrong. Have the exact wording of the code on which you’re basing your relinquishment with you and use it on the forms. Ask others here if the basis of your case is sound.
Good luck to you!
@George, yes anything that’ll help prove he knew when he took the job that it would lead to him losing his US citizenship. The more he can back that up the better. I don’t know if a letter’s necessary, but certainly if he can get hold of his employment records, oaths he may have sworn for the job, etc, it’ll all help.
Nothing is needed for a renunciation of course. Only the 4079 form which they insist on using, but really has no bearing on the matter. They can’t “decide” whether you have lost your citizenship when you renounce. It happens automatically when you swear the Oath of Renunciation. You could vote in a US election, do your tax forms, fly to/from the States a couple of days before you take the Oath and none of that matters. You have stood in front of the Consul on the appointed date, sworn the Oath and you are no longer a US citizen from that date.
@ Chrispy,
Also take a look at the “Relinquishment of US Citizenship by Persons Born Dual or Who Naturalised in a Foreign Country as a Minor” post and thread. It links to a PDF of consulate reports by Brockers who relinquished by government employment. For a shortcut to the PDF, click here.
@Kathy, Chrispy
As far as I know, and unless things have changed in the past two years or so when my wife had her relinquishment interview, you do NOT need to complete form 4079 or any other forms when booking an appointment at a consulate or embassy. I don’t think you even need to fill out those forms and bring them to your appointment, though that might save a bit of time at the appointment. However I’d recommend downloading all the relevant forms from the State Department website (forms 4079, possibly 4080 I think for renunciation, and 4081 for both, if I recall the numbers correctly), going through them on your own, and for the appointment printing them out with all your answers BUT DON’T SIGN THE FORM in advance you need to do that during the interview in front of the consular officer, whether renouncing or relinquishing.
Be aware that the questions under 13 on form 4079 are intended to determine whether you have US ties and in the case of relinquishment claim whether you’ve SUBSEQUENTLY done anything that would rebut a relinquishment-with-intent-to-expatriate claim. So for example, where you are asked if you’ve ever registered a child as a US citizen at an embassy or consulate, if you have, say yes (otherwise you’ve sworn a false document which is a criminal offence) but if you did that BEFORE the date you committed an expatriating act, pen that fact in on the form to make it very clear it was before you became a foreign citizen or whatever other expatriating act you may have committed. (Registering a child AFTER an allegedly expatriating act is inconsistent with an intent to relinquish and blows your case out of the water; doing so BEFORE that act is irrelevant, as is getting a passport or voting in a US election BEFORE an expatriating act). Also be aware that in no cases of which I’m aware, has State ever asked for details about the name(s) of child(ten) registered, dates or places of registration. My wife had registered her kids before she became a Canadian citizen, admitted to that on 4079, followed my advice about penning in a notation on the form, and the consular officer read over it and didn’t bat an eye or ask any questions on that point (Toronto, 2012). So you aren’t “outing” your kids by answering that question, and AFAIK they have no authority to probe for details beyond establishing whether the registration was before or after an expatriating act. The interview and forms are about YOUR status; whatever children you have and whatever status they have is irrelevant to your interview and they have no right to probe on that point.
@ Pacifica and moderators: May I suggest that you start a Part 3 for this thread? Every time I go into it to check for recent comments, my browser opens the comments at October and have I have hit “newer comments” repeatedly to get down to the recent ones, which is a bit of a pain. Perhaps starting a new thread will finesse that problem?
Thanks for the continuing information on the details of this process. I need to sit down and consolidate all the great advice I am receiving here. I really appreciate it! I also need to see what I can track down as a record of my government employment – thanks for the tips on different sources of documents that would substantiate my employment. And yes, I will wait on booking a renunciation appointment until I see if I can pull a relinquishment together.