Please Provide in This Post Approaches Big Canadian Banks Will Use to Establish U.S. Personhood of Account Holders on July 2 2014: Remember— Information provided in casual conversations with account manager is now accepted bank practice in Canada

643 thoughts on “Please Provide in This Post Approaches Big Canadian Banks Will Use to Establish U.S. Personhood of Account Holders on July 2 2014: Remember— Information provided in casual conversations with account manager is now accepted bank practice in Canada”

1. I was just speaking to a good friend on the phone this morning and he said a couple of things that made me go…aha!

   What he said was this: one time a bank asked him to supply his SIN and he refused to give it. They said “but sir we are obligated to ask you for that information” and his response was “you may be obligated to ask me that question and now you have done so, so therefore you have met your obligation. However, that does not mean that I am obligated to answer the question.”

   I suggest that in person, when asked questions we do not want to answer, we say things like that and on forms, we do what people do on contracts when they do not agree to a particular clause and cross it out, or put “NA”.

2. NEWS ON PRIVACY FROM SUPREME COURT JUST IN
   Supreme Court bans warrantless cell phone searches, updates privacy laws
   Major ruling updates privacy laws for 21st century

   Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/25/supreme-court-bans-warrantless-cell-phone-searches/#ixzz35g09qwRr

3. @Pollyanna – Since the conversations you have had with the bank personnel over the years is pure hearsay and not in your files, I do not understand how they can possibly use that information. What if you were just making it all up? They have NO proof that you have ANYTHING to do with the US. You could sue them!

4. What is the Royal Bank of Canada approach to FATCA compliance?

   I am very skeptical of the following answer, but after 45 minutes with a friendly customer service rep and her many phone calls to “Support”, this is what the Royal Bank of Canada told me:

   If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.

   However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth. (I had her repeat this four times in different ways.)

   Assuming that any of the above is correct, the customer service rep agreed with me that the wise course would be to not present a passport when opening the account. This really needs to be confirmed.

   What was highly believable was what happens to you should you be identified to Royal Bank as a US Person: The Royal Bank “FATCA team” pays you a visit and presents you with a package.

5. GwEvil, interesting.

   That, though, may not work for being deemed recalcitrant and then the bank automatically turning all your information over.

   In plainer words, we would be (Synonyms for recalcitrant): disobedient, uncontrollable, fractious, obstinate, fractious, obstinate, rebellious, unruly, wayward, contrary — ETC. ending in willful.

6. @Stephen: I have no idea if that will or will not be RBC’s approach, but it is certainly one that makes sense.

   In a cross-post I did of this thread at Maple Sandbox, I also posted the link bubblebustin provided here to the finalized CRA guidelines. While they are highly technical, they also show CRA is giving the banks huge wiggle room.

   First, remember CRA information for individuals say banks are not required to ask for place of birth. If TD is doing that, they are doing it because they are choosing to do it, not because the IGA or the Act requires them to do it.

   Secondly, the CRA guidelines for the FIs say a birth certificate with a city and state of birth, but no country if birth is not an unambiguous place of birth. I checked my birth certificate. It says Warren, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. No country anywhere on it.

   My passport, on the other hand, says place of birth Warren, USA with no state.

   I think CRA intentionally is trying to give FIs a way of not identifying US persons among their customers. If what the RBC person told you is correct, they are taking the Don`t Ask. Don`t Tell approach with CRA`s blessing.

   The other ones asking questions they are not required to ask could possibly give someone asked the questions a reason for a Human Rights or Privacy complaint. That is what I intend to do if TD or my new credit union asks me those questions.

   If what the RBC person told you is correct, RBC will likely see an increase in business. TD and Scotia will likely lose business if the information provided about them is correct.

   This is what CRA final guidelines say about unambiguous place of birth:

   8.27 When the indicium found is an unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth, the account must be reported unless the financial institution obtains or currently maintains a record of all of the following:

   a self-certification showing that the account holder is neither a U.S. resident nor a U.S. citizen;
   evidence of the account holder’s citizenship in a country other than the U.S. (for example, a passport or other government-issued identification); and
   a copy of the account holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of why:
   the account holder does not have such a certificate; or
   the account holder did not obtain U.S. citizenship at birth.

   8.28 In the context of an electronic record search, an “unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth” must include identification of the U.S. as the country of birth. Identification of a city and/or a state as the place of birth, without identification of the country of birth as the U.S., is not considered to be unambiguous.

7. My BMO online query and answer:

   To: Feedback
   Subject: Questions for Opening a BMO Chequing and/or Savings Account

   After July 1, 2014, what are the specific questions that BMO will ask of anyone opening a new BMO chequing or savings account?

   Thank you for contacting BMO Bank of Montreal about our account opening process. I apologize for the delay in responding.

   With regards to your inquiry, I can confirm that upon opening your account, we will inquiry about that status of your U.S. residency for tax purposes.

   For your reference, the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is a law that was passed in the United States. U.S. citizens are taxed on their worldwide income regardless of where they live. FATCA is aimed at combating U.S. tax evasion by U.S. Persons with financial assets outside the U.S. Therefore, FATCA is meant to encourage proper reporting of all investment income and all dispositions of securities undertaken by a U.S. person irrespective of where in the world the investment is held. Beginning July 1, 2014, non-U.S. financial institutions will be required to identify, document and report on accounts held by U.S. Persons.

   While much uncertainty still exists regarding the obligations that Canadian banks will face under FATCA, BMO is committed to complying with all applicable laws and regulations in the jurisdictions where BMO operates.

   You can find more information about FATCA on the Canadian Bankers Association website by following these steps:
   1. Go to cba.ca
   2. Select the “Consumer Information” link
   3. Select “U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) Information for Clients”
   I hope this information has been helpful for you.
   If you have any further questions, write to us again or call us at 1-800-363-9992. Thank you for choosing BMO Bank of Montreal for your everyday banking needs.

   Michael Cardillo

   BMO was the only one who figured out what I was really asking.

   *****
   RBC Royal Bank said:

   Dear Carol,

   My name is Monique, your banking advisor and I will be pleased to assist you with your inquiry.

   In addition to the standard questions relating to your personal information such as name, address etc., we currently ask for your consent to obtain your credit bureau report and if the account will be used by or on behalf of a third party.

   It is unclear from your message if this is the information you are seeking. If not, can you please provide more details and what changes on July 1st you are inquiring about.

   Thanks for contacting us. We’ll be happy to help you again if there’s anything else you’d like to discuss.

   If you prefer, you can call us at 1-800-769-2511.

   CIBC replied:

   Dear Sir or Madam,

   Thank you for taking the time to write to us.

   I regret that I was unable to determine the nature of your request from the correspondence we received. Please write back with further details of your request.

   If you wish to open a CIBC bank account, you have three options for opening a bank account with CIBC.
   • You can apply for a bank account through Online Banking
   • You can visit any CIBC branch and speak to a Financial Service Representative
   • You can call CIBC Telephone Banking at 1-800-465-2422. Assistance is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. From abroad, the number is 1-902-420-2422. Collect calls are not accepted.

   To apply for a bank account online, please follow the steps below:
   – visit http://www.cibc.com
   – click on “Offers & Products”
   – click “Bank Accounts”
   – choose the type of account that you would like
   – click “Apply now”
   – follow the instructions provided

   Please note that you have two options when applying for an account online:

   1. Apply online and mail in the documents. The fulfillment time for this option is 2 business days from the receipt of the completed client package. As the applicant, you will need to:
   – complete and submit the online application
   – print and sign the signature card (from a link at the end of the application)
   – mail the signature card and a personalized $25.00 cheque (including name and address) written to yourself to the address provided in the application

   You will receive a Welcome Package in the mail when your account is activated. You will also receive a Convenience Card and PIN mailer through two separate mailed notices.

   Or

   2. Apply online and visit the branch. The fulfillment time for this option is 2 business days from the receipt of the online application. As the applicant, you will need to:
   – complete and submit the online application

   – visit the branch with 2 pieces of valid identification to activate the account once you are contacted by the branch you selected

   If this information does not apply, please write back to us and once we receive your response, we will write back.

8. @calgary411 – even if you were labelled recalcitrant, since you did not ADMIT to being a tainted US person, they couldn’t actually pin anything on you. Deny, Deny, Deny!!

9. Why in heavens name, presented with these kinds questions, would I not just lie? What’s the penalty for lying to your bank? The accuracy of this information doesn’t affect their ability to serve me in any other way, so I would choose to give them inaccurate information.

10. @PYYJ – I actually agree with you on that. There’s no bank jail, so yeah, why put yourself in harms way? What pisses me off, though, is why we should even be asked at all and I would love to tell them to piss off! I actually hope that Canadians who were born in sensitive countries such as Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Afghanistan amongst many others will take offense at being asked where they were born (not knowing it’s intent is to ferret out US tax cheaters like us) and raise a huge stink!

11. I opened an account for my daughter last week. As a minor she only needed her health card and SIN as verification of who she was. I could have used her birth certificate but they were fine with just the two I mentioned and I didn’t offer to bring in anything else.

    The bank was ATB and we have banked with them long enough that they know perfectly well that we originate from down south. Yet I have not been asked to verify anything and I get the feeling that I won’t be any time soon.

    Personally, I wonder if it is just banks who have a presence in the US that are going to be sticklers and I agree that the CRA (and the IGA itself to some extent) isn’t going to kill itself in the pursuit of human sacrifices. jmo.

12. What-if I am a naturalized US citizen living in Canada? In other words, I have 2 passports, one American and one Ukrainian. I use my American to enter the Canada, but I want to use my Ukrainian to open a bank account in Canada. That passport, obviously, shows non-US birthplace.

    In that case, am I subject to FATCA? Can IRS or the bank find out?

13. Why do people here keep talking about bank accounts? Shhhheeeesh
    get credit union accounts and stop talking about this.

14. The Canadian government cannot bother Egypt about the dual citizen reporter because to protest means they are hypocrites for not supporting US persons here
    Anyone think about that conundrum?

15. My U.S. born mother (now deceased), sister and I have two BMO joint accounts which we just closed today as I am worried that my mother’s bank profile may include U.S. indicia When doing so, I discovered that all my accounts are linked to the joint accounts – ie, BMO mastercard & rsp mutual fund. When I asked for my bank profile, it still listed the two joint accounts, though indicated they were closed. Does anyone think that the bank’s “data mining” will still be able to uncover my mother’s U.S. indicia, in spite of the account being closed? If there’s any chance that U.S. indicia is still on my accounts, I will cancel my BMO mastercard and mutual fund.
    Any and all thoughts are much appreciated 🙂

16. I may have missed this aspect, but it seems to me that none of the statements provided by the five banks indicated that only accounts OVER $50,000 would be reported to the CRA. I got the impression that if ANY U.S. indicia is discovered, the customer will be reported, regardless of the account balance. Did anyone else get this impression?

17. @ChearsBigEars

    Of 5 replies that I’ve gotten from credit unions, 3 are reporting and 2 are non-reporting. All 5 of these only allow Canadian residents to hold accounts, so I was hoping 5 out of 5 would be non-reporting due to having a “local client base”. One probably _can_ assume that no banks are FATCA free, but you cannot assume all credit unions are safe.

18. @Sasha – the low hanging fruit will be the people with obvious US indicia and it probably won’t matter at all what their bank balances are. I’m betting that the banks may feel that they can score easy points with their masters at the Treasury dept by turning those people in.

19. @WhatAML

    That’s not the point. Find a small one. I’m also thinking VANCITY is so anti Fatca that they ***might not even bother reporting voluntarily. Vancity is not like the rest. They don’t give a rats ass what the IRS wants or the CRA. No one can do anything to them as they are local and certainly are not part of the US war machine that those who bank in the major banks are contributing to. I sleep at night.

    I understand that a rebellion is starting to take hold among certain credit union central and local credit union members who have had enough already and they are starting to see the bluff.

    OMG !!! the USA is going to shut down the Canadian financial sector and ruin our economy and then let millions of central American kids in to make sure we all go broke. Who among us really believes that the USA is going to try to wreck our financial institutions? Really? Truly?

20. There is a requirement to search all accounts with balances over $50k and report. There is a bottom end, but no top end.

    They can search and report everything. They can report as many positives of indicia as they want. The only requirement is the minimum. There is no requirement at the top end.

    Just to be safe, they could and should just send the entire list of customers to the USA.

21. Mark Twain, see my small claims court post on another thread. I hope it got posted

22. Could the IBS website provide, as a shared resource, a country-by-country list of reporting and non-reporting institutions?

23. @chearsbigears
    Re credit unions- looked like a good idea until I tried to find one here in quebec. The only choice here is the caisse populaire credit onion. It’s a monopoly. And they state that they will comply. Bad news for my sister, her kids who’ve never set foot in the states, and my 90 year old mother.

24. King of the Road: I think this is the list you want: https://www.abolishfatca.com/IRS_FFI_List.pdf

    I was shocked to find my credit union listed here. According to its website it is impossible to open an account at this credit union if you don’t live in Canada. It shouldn’t have to have anything to do with FATCA or the IGA. The whole thing is an utter mess. No one knows the rules.

25. Would someone who is “safe” please contact Alterna Savings? I have been a “member” since 1977 and it appears to be on the list of compliant financial institutions. It is a CU that may have a significant number of academics at U of T (having been previously called the Universities and Colleges Credit Union) and as such may raise the interest of the many people in the academic world who should be paying more attention to this issue than they seem to be. So it appears that not only will I be an international second class citizen, I can also claim second class membership at an institution that I have given my business to for 47 years. Unbelievable.