. FATCA Fact Finding Forum Report Part III
We took a break after Professor Christians’ presentation and began again with a brief talk by Anglican Archbishop Dorian Baxter who is the President of the Progressive Canadian Party. He related a very funny story of a conversation with an older member of his congregation who lamented that we no longer had Steve Jobs, nor Johnny Cash or Bob Hope. They talked a bit about this and then applied to current state of Canada – we have no jobs, no cash and no hope!
He emphasized that we need to hold the CDN govt accountable to the standard of the Westminster model of Parliamentary Democracy. This relates to a core principle of the Progressive Canadian Party and the illegal “merger” of the Canadian Alliance Reform Party (aka “CRAP”). This provoked much laughter. Then he applied the Westminster ideal to the fact that FATCA is an invasion of CDN Autonomy as well as the Canadian Treasury as it is a money grab of millions of dollars from Canadian families, their children and their children’s children.
Next we heard from James Jatras who had travelled all the way from Washington to be with us. He has a completely different approach than what is commonly being expressed, even by Brockers. We all speak of FATCA as if it will happen; “resistance is futile.” He feels there is very much that can be done to defeat FATCA.
*FATCA is not equivalent to NAFTA, WTO, etc. Most Homelanders are completely unaware of it. Including a high-level aide to a Senate Finance Committee
*FATCA amounts to a UNILATERAL, extra-territorial law which says if you don’t obey us, we will punish you with sanctions.
*Instead of an IGA, Canada should pass a tax treaty override; what we have now is the CDN govt and the FFI’s collaborating against CDN citizens.
*US: “we are generously allowing you to change your law.” This is no partnership.
*Article 2 of the IGA “foreign partner; subsection A is unequal to subsection B and Art 6 US will “eventually” adapt to partner level This will never happen.
*like a preemptive war where one commits suicide to avoid death
*China will not; expects Brazil will not; Russia? It is CRUCIAL that Canada say “NO” This will set the stage for others to do the same. Powerful influence since we are such a major partner of the US, if we can do it, so can others
“Never seen such a bad law similar to the Catastrophic Recovery Act of 1989 or the Dubai Ports Law, which were repealed
*FATCA stands to cost the world $1 trillion dollars what with the tax lawyers, accountants and the IT depts. required to make it work
*CBA letter to US Treasury – take 1% of the money spending to implement FATCA and use instead, to repeal FATCA
*We need $50k – $100k a month for 12 months in order to deal with repealing FATCA; ads in “Roll Call; etc, you can’t just ask Congress to do something, there’s a process
*EXTORT EMBARRASSING DETAILS/ MAKE AN ORGANIZED EFFORT
*Treasury is in a rush to get IGA’s signed before the repeal forces rise up
*Where on earth are the CDN media, the NDP, the Lib Party, the Conservative Party –(just at this point, Mr Gullon mentions a newcomer is a member of the Green Party)
*FATCA = a US Discriminatory Trade Infraction
*Canada: We will hit you with law suits, trade actions, etc. Legislation after FATCA-we will withhold 30% of all income of Americans in Canada; ask our PFFI’s to collect waivers, etc
*Seek out those spending millions now and get a tiny portion of that towards PR to repeal
*Discussion of who has signed – UK, Denmark, Ireland, Mexico, Switzerland; UK has to clear Parliament; the Honorable Sinclair Stevens suggested that we emphasize any aspect that UK has yet to clear – this could have an impact on Canada. Not sure it was clear why – i.e., an American might not understand the Canadian attitude toward England in parliamentary matters.
*Are the IGA’s “Executive Agreements?” or “Competent Authority Agreements?” Is Treasury overstepping by not getting Congress to approve IGA’s? Treasury says they have to promulgate regulations and that they have the legal authority to do so. Do they?
*UK-signed Sept 12, 2012. They still have to implement the legislation allowing for FATCA and now, son of FATCA
*There are those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who ask “what happened?” We need to be of the first category.
*You must require the government to JUSTIFY why they are doing this
*Bring back 2003 when PM Chretien said NO to attacking in Iraq; very similar to the “coalition of the willing” notice again, the UK is the first to sign on
*Recapture and recreate the 2003 movement
*The Green Party representative, Erik (sp?) Jacob Hawkins is a Critic in the Shadow Cabinet, is from Barrie and works directly with Elizabeth May; Parliament recessed; however, with a petition with at least 25 signatures, a member can force Parliament to examine an issue. The Honorable Sinclair Stevens, Prof. Allison Christians and Jon Richardson immediately drafted a petition which we all signed to present ASAP and hope no IGA is signed before Parliament resumes in January.
*There should be bilateral agreements without any bizarre sanctions
*Banks themselves should have reasons to instigate movement against FATCA; likely banks have pressured Flaherty who clearly did not like, did not agree with and did not want FATCA
*Discussion of possible actions in near future re: Op Ed’s, etc. (more on this later and please don’t ask for now)
At this point, Petros asked me to drive Prof. Christians to the airport to catch her plane so I left and do not know what happened after this point though Jon Richardson mentioned there would be several more speakers after the break and Petros had prepared something, so hopefully, he will have more to report and was able to deliver his comments.
********
Generally, the audience composed of about 5 members of the Prog. Canadian Party including previously named speakers; Abby Desham, Allison Christians, James Jatras, Petros, Deckhard and myself (I don’t know if there were other Brockers) and the rest were duals with their non-US partners. I spoke to a lady who said she was an Accidental remaining in “full ostrich;” she has been following since ExpatForum and reads IBS. The lady sitting next to her had to go but also came due to Brock. I spoke to a couple and a man who said Peggy Nash had told him about the meeting; another set of 3 who knew via Brock and 2 more who also knew via Brock. One fellow was conversant with many concepts but I did not get a chance to speak with him. At least 11 attendees were not Brockers or speakers or Party members
*Was someone named Jeff Mukadi there. He would definately be familar with the concepts of FATCA and no friend of FATCA either.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeff-mukadi/25/781/214
No, I didn’t see anyone resembling him.
*Too bad I wish he had gone he lives out in Peterborough. Perhaps next time.
“Treasury is in a rush to get IGA’s signed before the repeal forces rise up”.
What is Treasury’s interest in implementing FATCA so fast? They have a mandate to implement congress’s voted legislation, but surely, people working there must understand the extra-terriroriality, and other issues with this bad piece of legislation. Some people in treasury must understand that financially it does not make sense to ask the world to spend 1 trillion dollars to bring in less than 1 billion a year, and in the process have other countries hate the US and their policies even more. And that’s not talking about the negative consequences that this law is going to have on US people abroad and to exports in general.
I don’t understand that rush from Treasury to put FATCA in place, just for the sake of curbing tax evasion. Jim, would you mind commenting? Do you have some elements of answer to explain this rush. Why are they so eager to shoot themselves in the foot? Actually, this looks more like suicide.
*They believe they are doing god’s work. Just like Susan Rice whose diplomatic career I see has come to an unfortunate end.
Perhaps they fear their replacements will undo all their hard work. I seriously doubt there is any awareness on their part regarding extra-territoriality, it isn’t part of the US mindset to question their right to impose. And nobody in the government cares one iota about Americans abroad. We are to be punished and fined, end of story
nobledreamer – Thanks for your extensive reporting. (1) On a single readthrough, this line stood out the most to me: Re-think the charade of cooperation; Canada gets nothing, the PFFI gets nothing; pure extraction, no quid pro quo. Alas, that weakkneed approach seems so “Canada.” The Chretien standback from Iraq was so singular. (2) The biggest piece of missing meat: what Allison Christians had to say about indicia. News we can use! (3) So telling, the quantity and makeup of that audience. Not a cause for great hopes, is it? • Hating to seem negative and defeatist, but there is a reason I will have spent close to two years and much aggravation to get free of ugly uncle. Call me a realistic idealist. I believe the day will come that I have to – and will be able to – demonstrate to whatever FFI that my indicia point the wrong way. Sauve qui peut. As a veteran of multiple extended campaigns, I simply do not see the constellation of conditions required to achieve any significant traction on the issue of Canadian abuse of US extraterritorials. The fatal nonstarting point is the deepseated and understandable ressentiment that feeds on the them-and-us of antiAmericanism.
*”Next we heard from James Jatras who had travelled all the way from Washington to be with us. He has a completely different approach than what is commonly being expressed, even by Brockers. We all speak of FATCA as if it will happen; “resistance is futile.” He feels there is very much that can be done to defeat FATCA.”
I appreciate Jim being there ringing the bells that we can do something about FATCA. The problem there though is the Canadian general public is absolutely apathetic when it comes to anything US related. “We are friends”…”Why would friends do anything bad to us?” is the general concensus of the Canadian Public. Sadly the US has changed since that speech by JFK: “Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners. And necessity has made us allies. Those whom nature hath so joined together, let no man put asunder. What unites us is far greater than what divides us.” Well, unfortunately to BO, the words of 1961 have gone unheard. Economy is what is dividing Canada and the US and all the U.S. is fixated on is money. The Gates of the 49th Parallel will be closed.
@nobledreamer
Thank you for all of your work in getting this information so quickly. I wondered often throughout the day how the meeting was going. Being attended by numbers that represent 1/1,000,000th of the population of Canada isn’t cause for celebration though. Christmas shopping must be taking precedent over preserving Canada’s sovereignty.
@nobledreamer,
Thank you for being the official scribe of the forum and letting us get a feel of what took place in Toronto. You did good work in getting the word to the rest of us — and being a airport chauffeur no less. I (we) appreciate all the work you put into this.
And, thanks, Petros, as well for your part in this. I look forward to further commentary from you and Jim Jatras (and any other Brockers who may have attended).
Thanks for your comments, Hippocampe:
I, too, am sad there wasn’t a better representation of those of want their country, Canada, to remain strong and not a puppet of the US.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/15/health-care-tops-most-ove_n_2308553.html#slide=1854674
says
The subject line of my submission will be
@ calgary411
My simple message to The House: I would say the most overlooked political story of 2012 is the problem with FATCA. If you don’t know what FATCA is then you are part of that problem.
Followed by: Brock news release and David Querbach’s statement (an FYI on the problem with FATCA)
Send that to them, Em. Here is another chance for us to communicate with the CBC. They are asking what is the most overooked political story of 2012. This is certainly overlooked or is it IGNORED?
Lets, all of us, send our individual emails to CBC.
@Calgary411
Great find! My message to The House:
“Most Canadians have heard of health care and climate change, but have you heard of the the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)? The fact that you haven’t is the post compelling evidence that it is the most overlooked story of significance this year. FATCA threatens to turn Canadian banks into bounty hunters for the IRS and the Canadian Government is poised to be complicit in this persecution of Canadians deemed to be US persons. Every US person has the oppressive requirement to pay US taxes regardless of where they live in the world, how long they’ve been abroad or even whether they’ve set foot in the US. These are our friends and family in Canada. US tax policies enforced by FATCA will see the end of American global migration and perhaps the end of America altogether.”
@ calgary411 — It’s already done. Thanks for finding “The House”.
From: caroltapanila
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:11 AM
To: thehouse@cbc.ca
Cc: Minister James Flaherty ; Honourable Doug Horner, MLA ; Honourable Kyle Fawcett, MLA ; Michelle.Rempel@parl.gc.ca ; US Ambassador to Canada David Jacobson
Subject: The most overlooked political story of 2012
The most overlooked political story of 2012 — the likely surrender of Canada’s sovereignty with FATCA, the fact that the media has ignored this history-changing issue, and that Canadians don’t seem to care!!
Canada’s Finance Minister James Flaherty meets with provincial Finance Ministers on Monday, Dec. 18, 2012. Will there be decision, or even discussion, on Canada standing strong and refusing to surrender to the United States the Country’s sovereignty and privacy laws in signing an Intergovernmental Agreement to circumvent that law and the rights of 3% of its citizens and residents? This will be to comply with the US extra-territorial Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
If the media does not adequately highlight this important story to the Canadian public, it is complicit. It will be a huge part of this problem. Continuation of Canadian media’s ignoring or hushing this issue is, in my view, obstructionist.
A FATCA information session took place at the University of Toronto on Saturday. Those attending are among the first Canadians to come to the realization that Canada is under attack; its financial system is threatened with a 30% deduction of transactions coming from the US if they do not release to the US all accounts and transactions of US Persons in Canada. The IGA that it is reported Canada will sign by the end of the year will enable confiscation of “USP” Canadian legal bank savings and pensions and the ability to send to a foreign government, circumventing the direct transmission from Canada’s financial institutions to the United States to the transmission of this data first to the Canada Revenue Agency and then CRA transmission to the United States.
Should this not be a wake-up call for ALL Canadians, a matter of ignoring the Canadian Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
Many who have been paying attention are fearful for ourselves, for our families, for other “US Person” families and for the country we now call home – Canada. Here is a summary written for a local newspaper by one concerned, courageous Canadian, David Querbach. With his permission:
Respectfully submitted,
Carol Tapanila
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Great messages. For those few that tweet, here is the twitter account. @CBCTheHouse
https://twitter.com/CBCTheHouse
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/280376147974434816
*@Calgary411, WOW, what a wonderful letter. Super!
yes, Calgary 411, great letter.
There is one aspect of David Querbach’s letter that could use more discussion. Wouldn’t FATCA in fact create three classes of Canadians, the third being a class of Canadian citizen or permanent resident who are US persons but have no indicia of US personhood thus are able to fly under the radar with impunity?
@bubblebustin,
Yes, you are of course correct! My son will be one of those USPs of the third class. He does not have indicia of US personhood, being a developmentally disabled Canadian for whom I do not have the right to renounce US citizenship. He is thus a third class victim of this US insanity. Where are his rights in all of this?
I added:
@All
slight correction – I really wanted to try and identify (to myself, not “outing” anyone) how many Brockers were there so I could make sure to talk to those who were “new.” And to find out how they knew about the meeting (so we could know what “worked” tweets or kijiji or IBS, etc). So now I know I did talk to all but 1 of the “new” folks as I am able to figure all of the Brockers:
PC party/crew 6
Guest Speakers 3
Green Party 1
Brockers 7
New People 9
So my count, based upon how accurate my “picturing” where people sat, is 26. I know that is depressing but to have had 10 people come (Green Party and New) with virtually no PR is better than nothing. My feeling is we have to begin a new level of focus and approach and look at anything done up to now, as finished.We should be glad we had that 10. What else can we do? When one of the speakers (don’t remember who know) asked how many of us felt the IGA was a “done deal,” and many did raise their hands, including myself, Jon Richardson became very animated about the fact that this was something we could NOT allow ourselves to accept. And he was completely right. If we do, we are surely defeated. We may not win, but if we give up, there is no hope whatsoever.
@ usx, Regarding indicia, sorry, she spoke so fast about that, there was no way I could get it down. I will look again, to see if I can remember. At any rate, will be in the video.
@Calgary, Bubblebustin, Em and Just me – great stuff! Will work on email to cbc and Twitter soon. kinda tired today. 😉
@ nobledreamer
You deserve a break today. I’m actually not surprised by or discouraged by the turnout. We have to understand that underlying all of this FATCA fiasco is the FEAR factor. People want to be able to express their outrage and anxiety but there’s always the fear of bringing attention to themselves in the process. It took me awhile to just start commenting under a nom de plume here at Brock. You can’t rush people into this, despite the urgency of this cause. They have to dip in a toe and then hopefully when they find the water isn’t too hot or cold they will leap in with both feet — providing they are reassured that they are going into the shallow end of the pool and not going off the deep end. Thanks to you and all the other Brockers for being there!
@Em, Thank you! And you are definitely right, fear is still that huge, ugly accompaniment to this situation.
Question for all, what was the “2003 Chretien moment?” I confess to not having been paying attention to that at all. What was it and how can we recapture it?
*nobledreamer
You have to read to Eddie Goldenberg’s the way it works inside Ottawa. It gives a pretty good run down of how the 2003 Chretien moment came to be.
http://www.amazon.com/Way-Works-Inside-Ottawa/dp/0771035624