Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 1,118 Comments

The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).

Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.

Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.

Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.

COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.

Part 2 is now open for your comments.  Thank you.

 

1,118 thoughts on “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”

  1. *Greetings everybody! Been up North, off the grid and am now home. Delighted to find in the mail, a notice from Toronto consulate indicating my CLN was approved by DOS on July 23. The letter is dated Aug 15th and my official date of renunciation is January 20. The whole timeline:

    1st appt November 30, 2011

    2nd appt Jan 20, 2012

    The letter suggests that it took them 6 full months to process it. Tho I read that the Consulate sends them the day after the 2nd appt. ?????

    Anyways, only one more hoop – one 1040 for 19 days of citizenship, the 8854 and am totally free!

  2. @Nobledreamer

    Congratulations. What a nice Welcome Home present. I am sure you look forward to sending in that final 1040.

  3. Congratulations, nobledreamer. You’ve crossed the final finish line and will claim the prize of your freedom with a little more paperwork. You’ve done good, my friend! I’ll be so happy to update your information on the R&R database.

  5. Congratulations, Nobledreamer! It is heartening indeed to see yet another long-term companion on the grim and angst-ridden journey reach the destination!

    Others who went to Toronto, take some heart. Thanks to the dates Nobledreamer provided, I can tell you that she completed (with her second appointment) her renunciation CLN application in Toronto three months before my wife completed her relinquishment CLN application at the same consulate.  Nobledreamer’s CLN was approved in Washington one week later than my wife’s, yet her letter of transmittal from the Toronto Consulate was dated a week earlier than the date on the letter my wife got. Go figure any of that.

    It’s early days to draw conclusions based on only two recent cases so far, but I think we’re seeing a repetition of what happened with Calgary applications, as Pacifica has noted elsewhere. When the logjam starts to break, there is a certain randomness and inconsistency to the sequence in which things are happening. In particular, as I’ve noted before, I am at a loss to guess why it should take longer for them to process a renunciation (which doesn’t really require any serious cross-checking of anything on Form 4079) than a relinquishment (which one would think does require some cross-checking, certainly with passport and voting records for a start). But it’s a large bureaucracy, and having worked in large bureaucracies on the Canadian side of the border for decades, I long ago gave up expecting order and rationality to prevail in the bowels of those things.

    I encourage others who have gone to Toronto to take heart from what seems to be the beginnings of the end of a logjam, and to keep their eyes on their mailboxes for the next few weeks.

  9. *Thanks everyone! I really appreciate the support, believe it or not, it still doesn’t fully register with me.

    I think Schubert has made some very important comments as it makes no sense at all for me to have received notice of mine and others who renounced/relinquished at end of 2011 haven’t heard yet.

    FWIW, the response to my email as to how to pick CLN up- they prefer an appointment however, CLN’s can be picked up on Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays, between 2-3 pm.I would double check later on, to be sure. The first available appt is for Oct 1 so I think I’ll be heading down there tomorrow.

    I decided once CLN was approved, no more moniker, though I won’t change the gravitar for now.

    Best to all of you!

    Patricia Moon

  10. I’m so happy for you, Noble Dreamer!  What a great surprise to find in your mailbox
    when you got home from up North … gives a special meaning to “Welcome Home!”

  11. *nobledreamer

    congratulations, the wait is finally over.  no logical sequence to the sending and aproval of CLN

  12. Congratulations! And

    Do they really want you to pick it up in person, for a total of three appointments? They indicated with me that they’d put it in the mail –

  13. @Halifax Pier, As I recall when I was there in May I was asked which I preferred, (mail or pick up in person).  They pretty much assumed I’d opt for mail because I live a long distance away, but did mention the two options. 

  14. @Halifax Pier, Pacifica  — ditto my wife, she also was asked whether she wanted to pick up or have it mailed.  We live in Ottawa so she asked for mail, and they knew where she lived (address was given in the affidavit which she attached to her 4079 and which the vice-consul presumably had read before the interview, he had about 30 minutes to do so) but they asked anyway, as with Pacifica.  The vice consul also asked to see her Ontario Driver’s License so he could take a copy for the file (this is standard procedure I gather) and that has our address as well. He also had her write our address on a piece of paper so he could transfer it to the computer file so it would be sent to the right place.

  15. Wow, can’t wait until my CLN comes in. I will be applying for Swiss citizenship soon and as soon as that little red book with a white cross comes in the mail, I’m scheduling an appointment at the US embassy to declare that my US citizenship has been relinquished as I became a naturalized citizen of the Swiss Confederation with intention of losing US citizenship.

  16. CHFForever, you can go anytime and renounce US Citzienship. You will be stateless; however, Switzerland has signed onto all of the Conventions of Stateless People. I don’t know the specifics of the Swiss (or Cantonal) Constitutions, but if you are good person under their laws, most likely they would show Uncle Sam the middle finger if they wanted you to be deported. And I seriously doubt it even more that if you haven’t committed any REAL crimes….

    I’m cleanER than a whistle, but I live in the 3rd world. The people who hangle citizenship are on strike right now. This is the only reason I don’t go down and pay the $450. I would like to now, but I want to know that my naturalisation is “almost complete” before I go and do that. (Passports For Stateless People are more expensive and are last less time than regular passports)

  17. Statelessness is not a good idea.

    Apart from anything else, there’s a plausible scenario in which you’re deported from your host country to the United States, and ICE puts you in immigration detention for the rest of your natural life, because you’re not in the country legally and there’s nowhere to deport you to.

    All the things we’ve been discussing are at the end of the day First World problems; statelessness is not a First World problem.

  18. Thanks for the info; I would not go stateless as I already have another citizenship, I was not born in the US (3rd world non-EU unfortunately); I want to be absolutely certain that I have a 1st world passport before renouncing my US citizenship (I don’t think the US will be 1st world in the coming decades anyway).

    I have been living in Switzerland for a very long time and my US passport until now has not caused any problems, but I fear this will change in the coming years.

    I personally think the best citizenship combination in the world today is Swiss-Canadian. 

    With the Swiss passport you have all the benefits of having unlimited access to reside and seek work in the EU/EFTA area (31 countries) without having the financial and political liabilities associated today with being an EU member.

    With the Canadian you have the North American option open at your discretion; you can request TN status (if you are a qualified professional) if you ever want to reside/work in the US (which is a de facto Green Card as TN status can in theory be indefinitely renewed) and you have the liberty to terminate that status at will when you no longer reside in the US (de facto residency taxation pretty much).

  19. *@A broken man

    When I renounced, they did not take the $450 fee. So I was not asked which I prefer. I don’t want to wait nearly another month to get it and it’s a lot easier to just go in and pay with credit card as opposed to going to bank for draft, mailing, and more waiting.

    I want that baby in my greedy hands ASAP!   LOL

  21. Statelessness is not a good idea.

    Apart from anything else, there’s a plausible scenario in which
    you’re deported from your host country to the United States, and ICE
    puts you in immigration detention for the rest of your natural life,
    because you’re not in the country legally and there’s nowhere to deport
    you to.

    Swiss Pinoy, you’re talking like an American. Whoever could possibly become stateless needs to have gurarantees that they wouldn’t be deported. If there are NO guarantees, then they probably shouldn’t consider it. Where I live, there ARE guarantees in the Constitution.

    That said, I’m still going to wait for my naturalisation process to move further along because I don’t want to have to wait 30 years to get a passport to travel to Europe.

  22. @calgary 411   You should put 08/2012 as the date of renunciation as the renunciation was the last week of August.

    I will see the person who renounced in Sweden in a few weeks and I will ask for more information.

  23. I went to the Embassy in Ottawa in early September to make an appointment to renounce my citizenship. My appointment will be in late August, 2013. Does anyone have any information as to why this is so long?

    I first contacted the US Embassy in July and was told to use their website to schedule a first appointment.  I wasn’t told to bring anything with me.  At my appointment I talked to someone behind the counter for about 10-20 minutes as she dealt with other issues at the same time.  She was very busy.  She needed my US passport and proof of Canadian Citizenship, my SSN and personal information about where I had lived, how much time I had spent in the US and what I had done there, personal information about my family, and why I was renouncing. Some of the dates and numbers I didn’t know so she told me to bring my information to my next appointment.

    I then spoke with her supervisor who wanted to make sure that I understood that renunciation was permanent.  He told me that it looked like mine was a rountine renunciation and told me I didn’t need to bring any other documents to the next appointment. 

     

  24. *aaa

    They are “required“ to give you time to ponder,  however 11 months is excessive.

    You can make your next appointment at any consulate, your first appointment is on record.

    You should consider Montréal or Toronto consulates  to complete the process.

    You should download the pdf files for renunciation, complete them and bring 2 copies to the appointment.

  25. Hello aaa,

    We don’t know why Ottawa is requiring such a long wait period or why its entire procedure is so very different than the other consulates in Canada or the world, as people describe their consulate visits elsewhere in our 75 page Consulate Report Directory.

    Generally if a consulate (other than Ottawa) requires 2 appts for renunciation, the timespan from initial booking to completion of second appt is around 2 to 3 months. The entire procedure is so different it’s almost like Ottawa is representing a different country than the other consulates. We’re very puzzled.

    We only have this information regarding Ottawa in our Consulate Report Directory.

    “We have not yet received a report for the directory about this consulate, although we have received information about it from several sources, including consulate staff.Length of time between first and second appointments is apparently 6 months, over twice that of most other consulates for which we have information, and at several hours, the meetings themselves are considerably lengthier by far than at any other consulate for which we have information.

    Although there are minor variations between consulates, expatriation procedure at Ottawa appears to be really different, more complicated and lengthier than at the other consulates for which we have information.”

    I’ll update that reference of a 6 months delay to 11 months based on your recent experience, our data being a few months old. It’s odd, as so many consulates have been assigning extra staff or taking other steps to shorten their delay periods (some even changing to just 1 meeting for renunciation), that Ottawa has almost doubled its wait time during the past few months.

    Schubert posted on August 27th regarding Ottawa

    @Virg.  I live in Ottawa.  Three people I know in Ottawa went to Toronto, after some real horror stories we’ve heard about some serious attitude problems some consular staff in the embassy have here, which so far haven’t shown up in any of the consulates.  Unless you’re really strapped for time or money, go to Toronto. DON’T go to the embassy here in town.  Maybe they’ve cleaned up their act, maybe not, but my info is that even consular officers in other consulates in Canada have been disturbed by some of the crap that has gone on, as have a few lawyers both here in town and even in the States.  Life is too short to waste it interacting with pompous, nasty bullies.  There are a few of those types lurking in that hideous bunker on Sussex Drive.

    You have every right to go to Toronto or Montreal for that matter; there is no requirement for you to go to the consulate or embassy nearest you.  I’ve seen written confirmation of this from the DOS office in Washington that approves CLNs; people I know personally have also been told this by consular officers in the consulates and even (relunctantly) by one of the bozos in the embassy over the telephone.I don’t know anyone who has tried to get a CLN at the embassy after the bad-experience stories began circulating. That doesn’t mean no one has, but any time I hear of someone thnking of going to the embassy, I always steer them to Toronto or Montreal.

    https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/comment-page-16/#comments

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