Please RT Great presentation by @TalPolblog on the problem off US taxation of #FATCA and #Americansabroad https://t.co/sQm408IiAr
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) July 7, 2016
This is a great video of our friend, supporter & advocate Professor Allison Christians, telling the story of “Tina” at the International Conference of Taxpayer Rights in Washington D.C., November 18-20 2015. After she has finished and sits down at the table, fellow panelist David Brunori asks
David Brunori: Thank you Allison. Allison, what happened to Tina?
Allison Christians: Well, I cut off the end because there’s not enough time but the end would have said, there’s no happy ending for Tina.
David Brunori: There’s no happy ending for Tina?
Allison Christians: There’s no way out.
David Brunori: She’s not gonna sneak across the border is she? and become a.. a…. nevermind, that’s a completely whole different story.
Hear it for yourself:
Fabien Lehagre posted the video at American Expatriates FB group and Mr. Brunori’s comment prompted some responses:
Laura Wilson The ending jocular frivolity after being presented with such an atrocity is beyond enraging. Was there a discussion amongst the panel after Allison’s presentation not included here?
Suzanne Iclef Herman Tina’s more likely to commit suicide than “sneak across the border”.
Elizabeth Bland The last speaker’s comment was completely uncalled for. He must be feeling mighty proud of himself.
Suzanne Iclef Herman The message? Tina should be more grateful because people are clamouring to be American citizens.
Laura Wilson Suzanne, are you aware of Allison’s thoughts on the reception her talk received especially by Nina Olson? It is beyond belief that they can hear Tina’s Story, the gross indefensible injustice of it all, and do NOTHING. Just a wee applause and done, move on, next talk. I believe that is called soulless.
Suzanne Iclef Herman Laura Wilson no, I haven’t discussed it with her. Allison spoke for my husband and me, so it’s personally hurtful to see what looks like a flippant attitude toward our’s and Tina’s plight.
Tom Paine These are tax professionals. Therefore they don’t have a soul. Also they are “dumb bunnies” because they can’t see that the U.S. treatment if Americans abroad is what is in store for the “dumb bunny” home landers.
John Hanson This will, if not corrected, turn millions into criminals in the eyes of the USA.
Suzanne Iclef Herman I was accepted into Streamlined, which means that the IRS acknowledges that my lack of previous compliance was not “willful” on my part. Where is their admission of negligence in informing millions like me?
John Hanson I sent this video to my MP. He won’t believe me, but maybe he’ll believe a tax lawyer.
Personally, my blood boiled when I heard it but I can’t quite put my finger on what it is I don’t like. If she’s already an American, how can he suggest she would somehow take advantage of the U.S. and “sneak across the border?” As if she would want to anyways; here again is that contemptuous assumption that ALL people want to come to the U.S. Her story makes it clear enough she does not think of herself as a U.S. citizen nor does she even once accept the idea. Did he even hear what Allison said? So before nominating David Brunori for the Brock Hall of Shame, I’d like to ask all of you, what do you think he means?
Indeed Tricia my blood boiled also. My interpretation of Mr. Brunori’s statement: Tina is just another freeloader and we must pay careful attention if she wants back in. That seems the current homelander mindset for all those living abroad not paying their “fair share”.
This soulless cretin deserves a spot on the Brock Hall of Fame. Can a certificate be issued and sent to him?
He means the following.
Rule #1 The State is always right.
Rule #2 If the State should somehow be in error, refer to rule #1.
Or, it is not the State’s fault that individuals can not comply with its requirements.
Boy, reminds of Japan, but I digress.
Did anyone else catch a man’s laughter as A.C. told of the husband’s response that the information the IRS would receive included his own? My anger at these criminals is such that if ever I run into this creep, I would beat him within an inch of his life. The US can’t even keep the private info of its spies safe and he laughs at a non US persons concern over their claimed by the US spouse turning over their private info to them. What gall!
Just over at my neighbor’s place for coffee 2 days ago. These neighbors are retired and have friends drop by all the time. While I was there, one of their friends dropped by for a visit. We were chatting about the issues in the USA. The visitor, a 70 something lady, said that her 3 kids were born there but lived there for a short time. I asked her if any of them pay US taxes. She looked at me as if I have five heads and said”why would they pay US taxes”? I began to tell her about fatca and of m,any lives and families destroyed by the US threats to Canada and Canadians being forced to pay extortion to our so called “friendly” neighbor to the south. Again, she looked at me as if I should be sent to a shrink as I must be crazy. I told her that her kids are in big trouble and their spouses etc. I told her we must lie, if we were asked where my wife was born to keep our lives as normal as possible. I told her under no circumstances should her kids answer the question of where they were born by their banks. If asked, lie and say Canada. Here you go Trudeau, you lying scoundrel….. more CANADIAN families destrpyed. My god, there should be bloodshed over this destruction of our peoples!!
Allison Christians needs to do a TED talk & get this out to a different & more intelligent audience who possess sympathy/empathy.
Jane: That’s a great idea about Allison doing a TED talk. People who actually want to be educated about a subject they are unfamiliar with would, indeed, be a better audience.
As it is, I don’t think I can bring myself to watch this video. I read the content of Allison’s presentation when it was posted here several months ago and it is one of the best of the best of the great things she has done. I can’t bear to hear it dismissed as contemptuously as it apparently was.
Unbelievable! Oh yeah, not really. This reaction is the way it is.
“Personally, my blood boiled when I heard it but I can’t quite put my finger on what it is I don’t like. If she’s already an American, how can he suggest she would somehow take advantage of the U.S. and “sneak across the border?”
Because like so many homelanders he doesn’t think you are fully a US citizen unless you live in the US. Someone wrote this on the Americaa Expatirates Facebook page today, and is typical of the mindset. It was written in response to the DA amendment that was passed and part of the DNC convention platform here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154264064337980&set=a.484496837979.266236.688807979&type=3
Robin Plapp Killoran wrote, “I’m guessing that the “fair price” refers to the potential to return to the US at any moment of your choice to enjoy the protections –and obligations– of a citizen.”
Is anyone making a submission to the Department of Finance OECD GATCA consultation that is closing on July 15th. I am going to try to do one myself or have ADCS send it on their behalf. First I am going to ask for an extension this afternoon based on the outstanding litigation currently ongoing although I don’t expect to receive one.
I think you may be being a bit hard on the guy. He heard a crazy story. So crazy that he thought there must be some way out. He got the answer that there is no way out. He just struggled to say anything.
You can tell it’s a stupid thing to say because it won’t help this woman at all if she comes to the US in fact it will make things worse.
I tell people about this scenario all the time and how bad it would be. I didn’t know there was a real example but I course I knew there would be.
They are also downplaying the PFIC issue. It’s well known if you hold PFICs for a long time that the tax can easily exceed the gains. This is because the gains in the future which will be larger are assumed to have been made equally in all years and taxed with interest.
David Brunori as I understand is primarily an expert in US state and local taxation NOT federal level income tax. I am not sure why he was even on this panel given where his expertise lies.
So Tina has no options? She complies she destroys her family she doesn’t she may get questions from her bank soo .. There goal to cause people to suicide
Similar story here. I had a doctor`s appointment where I told him about the stress I had with IRS, and he told me he had a patient who was having a nervous breakdown about the same thing. Then he mentioned, as an aside, that his daughter was born in America while he did some training over there 20 ears ago. I told him she needed to be paying US taxes. They always look at you like you are insane. I suggested renouncing, and when I saw him 2 weeks later- he said that she didn’t want to renounce in case she wanted some training herself in America. I told him “All the more reason for her to get her taxes in order if she wants to move there.” and again- all I get is this blank stare. Its like it just doesn’t fit into their mindset that ANY country would ask for taxes if you don`t live there. UNFATHOMABLE – so I must be delusional. Nobody from another country can really wrap their heads around the concept.
Americans don’t know. They think they are free and can just move anywhere they like. They don’t know about CBT, PFIC or the exit tax. After all why would the greatest country int he world need an exit tax? That’s only for horrible countries.
“Because like so many homelanders he doesn’t think you are fully a US citizen unless you live in the US.”
That should solve the problem! CBT can’t apply to someone who isn’t fully a C!
US politicians and bureaucrats agree with that homelander position too. Does someone know how to get a court to agree?
“Allison Christians needs to do a TED talk”
I don’t think the talk would fit the categories of Technology or Design, but this video showed us some homelanders finding it Entertainment.
” & get this out to a different & more intelligent audience who possess sympathy/empathy.”
Yes that is needed, but the only audience who understands or empathizes with victims are victims themselves. No one believes it until it happens to them.
Not being too hard on him at all. He is an expert and should treat the presentation of another expert with the same respect that he has a right to expect. He is being disrespectful of the presenter and of all she represents. His remarks about sneaking in to the US shows that he really did not even pay attention to A.C.’s presentation.
If he is the one laughing (I believe he is) at Tina’s husband’s realization that his personal, private finacial data is goung to be turned over to a foreign government, then his actions clearly show that he is incapable of understanding the realities of our sitution and thus has no business being on such a panel. He is disrepectful and unprofessional.
I may be wrong on this, and from my recent discussiions with homelanders, seems I am. But my initial disbelieve in all this was not due to being from the greatest country on Earth and all that. It came from my education on the US constitution. The US gov. simply does not have the legal authority for any of this. Such blatant disregard for so many laws and constitutional amendments just didn’t seem possible. Once I had to face reality, I thought that it would just be a matter of informing enough people to put an end to it. But, as I said, recent dealings with homelanders tell me that very few younger than I and even many of my contemporaries either don’t know or do not care that these laws are being broken.
“Does someone know how to get a court to agree?”
Yes. It was done way back in 1776.
@Norman: I agree she should do a TED talk. These are not in any way limited to technology and design. One of the most popular TED talks ever was by a North Korean refugee about her years on the run throughout China. So, yes, human stories of interest which educate others about things they never could have imagined are right there on target for TED.
A well-presented talk such as the one in this presentation might actually open some eyes. Wish there was a way to get through to Allison to encourage her to contact the TED organization.
I think it is odd that he links the idea of an accidental American, living in Canada with what sounds like, the usual America attitude about people from Mexico, Central & South America trying to sneak into the country illegally. As Japan T points out, it demonstrates he really didn’t take in what Allison was saying.
The conference was on the taxpayer bill of rights, not exclusively expat issues so Mr. Bruoni’s presence seems to make sense to me.
“One of the most popular TED talks ever was by a North Korean refugee about her years on the run throughout China.”
Hmm, maybe the E of TED should be changed to Education instead of Entertainment. Then Allison Christians’ speech would be suitable.
But homelanders stil wouldn’t get it. They believe a North Korean refugee being on the run because they understand how tyrannical North Korea is. They still wouldn’t understand a talk by an American refugee about her years on the run throughout Canada.
“The conference was on the taxpayer bill of rights”
Considering that the US government has the right to deprive a US citizen of life without due process when the US citizen is outside the US[*], does anyone think the US government is supposed to feel constrained by the taxpayer bill of rights when abusing a US citizen outside the US?
[* If the US citizen is black they don’t even have to be outside the US, but that’s a separate issue. Or maybe it isn’t.]
It would be nice not to copy paste the names from facebook to Brock.
Please remember the early days of Brock when anonymity was crucial to so so many participants
David Brunori: Another stink-head “Liberal” “Progressive”, “I still care for the poor and dispossessed. I’m no anarchist. I’m no isolationist. I still believe that government has a positive role to play in society”
Now he says he wants to stink up the Libertarians.
“I’ve been calling myself a liberal in the pages of State Tax Notes since I began this column in 1996. I’ve been introduced at conferences and bars as a liberal tax pundit, a liberal professor, and a card-carrying liberal”
“It would be nice not to copy paste the names from facebook to Brock.
Please remember the early days of Brock when anonymity was crucial to so so many participants”
I don’t understand.
If someone posts to Facebook using their real name, they’re not asking for anonymity.
If someone posts to Facebook using a fake name, yeah I know that’s totally impossible in Facebook but hypothetically for the sake of argument let’s imagine someone doing that, then their fake name might get copied to Brock.
What’s the problem with letting the twain meet?