Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

House Finance Committee Q&A today on Canada-US IGA

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 104 Comments

As Blaze pointed out on Sandbox, and as I don’t at the moment see elsewhere here on Brock, the House of Commons Finance Committee met today from 3:30 through 5:30 today. Most of the second half of the meeting was taken up by the FATCA IGA, with questions of Finance officials (Shoom and Ernewein) mainly by the NDP, with softball lobs by Conservative members.

I’ll repeat here the comment I posted on Sandbox. I’m not going to subscribe to or respond to any replies to this; I just want to call everyone’s attention to the meeting, how to download a video clip of the entire meeting, and how important it is for Canadians affected by the IGA to watch, listen carefully, and reflect carefully.

I was able to download the two-hour video clip of this meeting at this web link

May 1 Finance Committee meeting

It isn’t quite obvious, but at this link directly under the General Information tab slightly down the page, there is a little link named “Play, Download or Subscribe.” If you click on that, a box pops up which lets you download an audio clip, a medium-res video clip or a high-res video clip in English or French, of the entire meeting. You can also view it on screen without downloading, but I recommend downloading to your desktop and then double-clicking the file once downloaded; in Windows, Windows Media Player will launch the clip. The FATCA (“Part 5”) discussion begins at 1 hour 5 minutes into the meeting (slightly more than halfway through) with Ernewein and Shoom as Finance witnesses (the former did most of the talking). The remainder of the meeting focused on FATCA. The meeting adjourned until, if I understood correctly, next Tuesday when the committee will reconvene with the Minister of Finance for an hour and then a resumption of questions on Part 5 (FATCA IGA) and then eventually some issues in Part 6 of the omnibus bill.

I think it is important to pay attention to this video, because it makes very clear how the government will reply, both in Parliament and I suspect in court if it comes to that, regarding the privacy and charter issues. The NDP pressed these issues very persistently, but the Conservative and Finance spokespersons responded in a way that gave me an inkling of some of the reservations that I suspect Joe Arvay may have raised in his legal opinion about how this might unfold. I’m not convinced the charter issue is going to be a slam dunk; it certainly is going to be an intricate and prolonged debate.

I won’t presume to summarize what was said, everyone can view the video and draw their own conclusions. Listen carefully to what is said, and how it is said, in particular in contemplating how you want to proceed for yourself and your family if you’re an affected so-called US person.

Also note that the Finance spokespeople made it very clear (once again) that CRA is NOT going to be collecting IRS penalties or tax liabilities against Canadian citizens. They made it VERY clear however that Canadian residents who are US citizens and who are not Canadian citizens may very well be collected against as a result of information provided under the IGA, if the IRS comes back to CRA with claims against them for specific tax liabilities (not penalties however).

I think all affected persons need to pay attention to the video I link above, and reflect carefully on what is said in it. Also it’s important to tune into the committee’s next meeting, which I THINK the chair said is next Tuesday, though it’s not on the meeting schedule yet.

I was born and educated in the US. After completing my post-graduate education, I entered Canada on a temporary work permit, moving to Canada because of the Vietnam war. Shortly after unpacking, I applied for landed immigrant status. A few months later I received in the mail an induction notice from the US Army; I drew a peace symbol on it in felt marker pen and mailed it back. As a result, I was indicted and a warrant was issued for my arrest (both were quashed in 1977 by the Carter amnesty). I became a Canadian citizen in 1975. In 1976, for the US Bicentennial I wrote a political letter to Henry Kissinger, then Secretary of State. In it I mentioned that I had "renounced" (I didn't then know of "relinquish") my US citizenship on becoming a Canadian, explaining in several pages my reasons for leaving the US. I also mentioned the fact that on my mother's side I am a descendant of a soldier who fought in Washington's army during the US rebellion, but now I was declaring my personal independence from the US and rejoining the British Commonwealth. Within six months, I received by mail a CLN recognizing my having expatriated myself from the US in 1975. I filed away my CLN and forgot I had it, until I found it after searching for it upon learning of FATCA and OVDI in August 2011. Since then, I proudly keep a photocopy of it with my passport (which is Canadian; I have never had a US passport in my life, nor will I ever). As a Canadian who long since ceased being an American and who has a CLN, I am not directly affected by FATCA or other US taxation outrages. However, my wife and several of her friends are affected, until their relinquishment CLNs (dating from 30-40 years ago) are issued. Also I have several close friends who were born in Canada of US parents and are considered by the US to be US citizens, though they have never lived in the US, worked there, earned income there, held property there, held US passports, or in any other way excercised USC and are horrified they might be considered US. I am active on this website and in writing my elected Canadian politicians about these issues, on their behalf. I am a retired former employee of the Government of Canada who faithfully and proudly served his adopted and adoptive country for many years. Updated September 2, 2012: earlier this week, my wife finally received her relinquishment CLN, State Department formal recognition that (in their exact words on the CLN) she "ceased to be a US citizen on" the date she became a Canadian more than 35 years ago. Mission Accomplished, to borrow words from my least-favourite contemporary/contemptible American. I will continue to monitor this website from time to time to see if I contribute useful information or opinions, but my wife and I are determined to regain our lives after the past twelve months of angst. Best wishes to all of you on this website in your odyssey toward freedom from the US.

104 thoughts on “House Finance Committee Q&A today on Canada-US IGA”

  2. “Also note that the Finance spokespeople made it very clear (once again) that CRA is NOT going to be collecting IRS penalties or tax liabilities against Canadian citizens. They made it VERY clear however that Canadian residents who are US citizens and who are not Canadian citizens may very well be collected against as a result of information provided under the IGA, if the IRS comes back to CRA with claims against them for specific tax liabilities (not penalties however).”

    That is why the IGA should not have included place of birth mentioned as an indica.

    Further, CRA should sift the data file for Canadian Citizens and remove the files before submission to the Americans.

    IF CRA is not going to collect, the information should not be sent….PERIOD.

  3. @George Totally agree; I’ve made that point in emails including recent one to NDP members of the Committee. However my sense of the comments from Joe Oliver and the Tory committee members at yesterday’s session is a) doesn’t sound like CRA is going to do any sifting, they’re expecting the financial institutions to do that — which I’ve argued against all along in various emails to government and opposition over the past year FWIW, and b) sounds like they’re sending information on anyone flagged as a US person regardless of Canadian citizenship or not. I wish I were wrong in my reading, but I don’t think so. I hope the opposition proposes amendments to change that, but even if they do I very much doubt the Tories will agree, and amendments will likely fail. That’s my reading and best guess, FWIW, unfortunately.

    I hope Lynne or someone else raises this point and the inconsistency with the protections enshrined in the Tax Treaty for Canadian citizens, at the next committee meeting (I’ve even quoted chapter and verse of the Tax Treaty in some emails, again FWIW).

    I don’t think the government is listening or cares. Just listen to what Keddy keeps saying in committee re US duals, which essentially seems to be “suck it up or renounce your USC,” ignoring the costs and hassles for those who don’t qualify for a pre-2004 relinquishment and ignoring the implications and outrage to US-born duals who never grew up or lived in the US, though he infuriatingly acknowledges that he knows of such cases in his own riding. Tells you all you need to know about how “caring” the Tories are re issues that don’t affect them and their funders personally.

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