Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

FATCA: The IRS’s Very Big Stick

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 64 Comments

This just out on the Wall Street Journal Blog, by Christopher Chung.

The U.S. Internal Revenue Service is brandishing a “very big stick,” and it’s called the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.

But the government isn’t looking to hit foreign funds and institutions to bring in tax revenue. “[The IRS] would say, ‘We would be thrilled if we didn’t collect a dime under FATCA,” Laurie Hatten-Boyd, a principal at KPMG, said. “They view this as an information gathering regime, not a withholding regime.”

Note:  No mention of impacts on Minnow Americans abroad, or immigrants new to America.

64 thoughts on “FATCA: The IRS’s Very Big Stick”

  1. Likely both and more and more resultant relinquishments and renunciations of fed-up ‘US persons’ abroad.  

    Certainly, in the end FATCA will be for tax revenue; the information gathering process just precedes it. Their mighty big stick indeed.

  2. All the citizens of the world should tell them what do to do with their big overreaching stick!

  3. “But the government isn’t looking to hit foreign funds and institutions to bring in tax revenue”… http://blogs.wsj.com/privateequity/2012/06/14/fatca-the-irs-very-big-stick/

    Then why is it called the “foreign account TAX compliance act”? What a crock – US public statements have proffered estimates of the amount of REVENUE they say it will bring in. And once in place, they can change the terms at any time if it isn’t causing enough taxes (or penalty revenue) to be generated. They can change thresholds, withholding, or anything else. It is very naive – or deliberately disingenuous to say that this is not about taxes, and servicing the huge federal debt any way they can.

    see
    ‘FATCA attack’
    28 May 2012
    by Christopher Alkan http://economia.icaew.com/Technical-update/Tax/FATCA-attack
    …….”Tax collection was not the only goal of FATCA. Even so, it was a leading motive according to Senator Max Baucus, who sponsored the bill….”….
    “Yet the US has been neglecting easier ways of raising revenue. The Internal Revenue Service had its budget cut by 2.5% for 2012, forcing it to lay off more than 5,000 tax collection staff. Given that each tax collector generates three times their salary in extra revenue, it seems like a bad time to be downsizing the IRS. In contrast, the FATCA rules may generate only $1 for each $4 that global firms spend in implementing the rules – a terrible deal for financial businesses.

    Finding people to speak in favour of the new rules is hard. FATCA will hurt the finance industry while providing little benefit to the US. …”

  4. All of these forms, FATCA, the FBAR, the 8938…I think that the US is planning to implement a wealth tax like France has.  That or they are just busy bodies who need lots of information to stay busy?  Why else would they need such detailed information on assets held?  Any ideas?  I bet that in the next decade the US will be forced to implement a national VAT, higher income taxes, a wealth tax and so on.  I also bet that there are serious vested interests in the US that would like nothing better than for the Eurozone crisis to drag on as long as possible, because once the dust clears over here everyone is going to notice the big elephant in the room and that is the outrageous state of the US finances and debt!

  5. @Don, and STILL no health coverage! It’ll make Canada’s and every other ‘socialist’ nation’s taxation look like a bargain.

  6. One of the hidden agenda of FATCA is to put financial institutions outside of the USA at competitive disadvantage.  Discourage US persons from investing outside the USA. I can get 3.5% interest in India while my US deposits earning 0.15%. The difference is a Tax and punishment for living within our means and saving money. Implementation of FATCA generates billions of revenues to US consultants, lawyers and software companies. Since the USA loosing exports, so must invent new ways to earn foreign currency.

  8. what truly amazes me is why every country in the world has not told the US to get lost. There are plenty of ways to fight back (30% import tax on all US products, etc…)
    Only Russia seems to resist a bit….

  11. CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF RETIRED PERSONS [CARP]

    Hi,

    I am a newly minted member of CARP — Membership Number xxxxxx.

    A real concern of many of us is that although we are Canadian citizens, the US governments considers us to be “US persons” and are making life miserable for us.
    Please see below.
    Can CARP help us out?
    Thanks!
    xxx xxx
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/help-im-on-the-irs-hit-list/article627365/ 
    also note 
    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a15
    andArticle 15.

    • (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
    • (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/accidental+Kenyan+What+African+policy+copied/6693291/story.html 

  12. @Joe Smith.

    Good luck on your correspondence with CARP.

    I never heard from them after this email:

    From: calgary411
    Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:18 AM
    To: support@carp.ca
    Cc: Michelle.Rempel@parl.gc.ca ; Minister James Flaherty ; US Ambassador to Canada David Jacobson
    Subject: We wonder — will CARP be an ally for US Citizens in Canada ?

    I was glad to see in your latest CARP newsletter two pieces advancing awareness on this important issue to Canadian Citizens (Duals) in Canada. I hope these will be more than just an “information” pieces and become part of CARP’s advocacy items.

    http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/21/canadian-bankers-association-declares-war-on-u-s-and-dual-canada-u-s-citizens-suggest-accounts-to-be-closed/ it It should be emphasized that when FATCA comes to town it will affect ALL Canadians. All of us will pay for the banks’ implementation of FATCA — they don’t have a slush fund to cover the costs to become arms of the US IRS.

    http://business.financialpost.com/2011/12/17/americans-in-canada-still-at-the-mercy-of-irs/
    and questions posed, can’t be stated any more succinctly ( http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/17/financial-post-article-questions-for-jamie-golombek/#more-236 ):

    “Thank you for keeping us informed about tax issues for US persons living in Canada. I have some questions though:

    Most Canadian residents won’t owe anything.
    This is true Mr. Golombek, but could you please explain to us which Canadian residents would or should owe something to the IRS?

    Now, let’s also consider that whatever Canadian source income gets taxed by the United States unfairly dilutes our tax base here in Canada and gives the taxpayer a credit on the Canadian income tax. How is that fair to Canada? If even one penny of our tax base goes to the United States to be frittered away on the wasteful spending in the US, isn’t that one penny too many? Don’t you think that Canada’s wealth belongs to Canada? How is it fair then that the US has the right to demand Canadian residents to pay anything to the US?

    Have you also considered that it is against the United States constitution to make US persons pay taxes when they have no representation in Congress? All US persons outside the US are considered to be resident in Washington DC for tax purposes? DC has no representative in the US Congress. How can the US treat people as though resident in DC when they are actually resident in other countries like Canada? How is that fair? Who is looking out for our interests? Is it the Canadian government?

    Have you also considered that the most likely person to be destroyed by the new tax tyranny of the IRS are seniors and older workers, who have savings in bank accounts and need that in order to survive for retirement, whose income is not protected by the Earned Income Exclusion? The new application of the FBAR law treats those of us who have savings in our Canadian bank accounts as tax cheats as though we were hiding our money in another country to avoid taxes. Do you realize how unjust that is? Did you read the Reuters article by Amy Feldman? What happens when the IRS pillages the savings of those older folks–will they not become wards of the Canadian government? Most of course will not be able to go on welfare or Social Security in the the USA, will they?

    Have you or anyone else at the Financial Post considered how many rights that the FBAR and FATCA laws violate? How FATCA is creating two kinds of Canadians, one Canadian who has full rights to bank accounts and TFSA, and second class citizens whose account information will be shared with the IRS by their Banks? Is that right? Is that not a violation of the Human Rights laws in Canada?

    Your article also fails to mention the large number of US persons in Canada who are renouncing their citizenship over this issue. But that, of course, is another story.”

    Here is my particular story:http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2011/12/14/my-story-calgary411/

    I hope you will find this a relevant issue to stay on top of for the many dual Canadian / US citizens in Canada (many of them age 50 and over, who you represent, who will be dependent on the Canadian retirement plans they have). I understand there are approximately 83,000 “US Citizens” in Calgary where I reside.

    My letters to my MP and to the Canadian Finance Minister have not been answered giving me their specific actions (although I do appreciate the Finance Minister’s putting this issue into the media). It is my feeling that many still are not aware – either that or they are ignoring the issue (as we have in the past) in the belief it will go away. All I can hope for is that something is being done in the background by my Canadian government representatives – not just actually ignoring my correspondence.

    I have also sent emails to the US Ambassador to Canada, with no acknowledgement. I am 68, one of those grandmas Ambassador David Jacobson referred to – I and so many others have been “sitting tight” since his speech in October to the Canadian Club in Ottawa. I feel I deserve to be part of the conversation adversely affecting the lives of my family members. Many US Citizens in Canada, including me, are spending large sums of money (for us) on professional advisors as we are getting no useful advice from the IRS (although we are led to believe there may be better information by the end of the year). We are in limbo and we need to get on with our lives without the fear the US has instilled – yes, we are living in fear of the IRS and outrageous US FBAR penalties for making a mistake.

    I will contact CARP again and send the May 31st speech to Vancouver Trade Board by President of Canadian Banking Assocization, Terry Campbell (start at 20:20 or so). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wosK05ynMX4&feature=plcp. All Canadians need to realize this US over-reach that will affect us all.

  14. @PoPopol

    @Don

    The reason they are not resisting is articulated by Tudundsteur in a recent comment to another post which includes:

    https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/12/foreign-financial-institutions-could-recover-some-of-their-costs-for-implementing-fatca/#comment-21661

    Todundsteuer

    June 12, 2012 at 9:11 am

    “It is this horrendous immediate cost to the local economy and fisc
    with little or no immediate offsetting consideration that should make
    FATCAT so pernicious in the eyes of foreign governments.

    However, these same governments have a long term interest in
    promoting and becoming members in the totalitarian system of
    global financial tracing and tracking that FATCAT is dangling before
    them.

    Even if their local laws presently prohibit taking full immediate
    domestic advantage of such a system, laying the groundwork through
    FATCAT participation at the international level will smooth
    their ”progression” to a system of total domestic as well as
    international financial transparency of the kind the United States is
    proselytizing.

    FATCAT is the totalitarian temptation.

    That may explain why there has not been a peep of public protest from Beijing or any other totalitarian regime.”

    This is why it is essential that opposition be created one community at at time. The simple fact is:

    1. The U.S. is the enemy of all sovereign nations; and

    2. The U.S. is the enemy of “freedom loving people” everywhere.

    As Joe Smith indicates through words and action is the necessity of lobbing our home governments and interest groups. Otherwise, as “Todundsteur” notes we may allow our home countries to become “stowaways” on the the U.S. Good Ship “Totalitarianism”.

    My God: what would the founders fathers think if they saw the country today!

  16. Terry Campbell’s speech is proof that the May 15th FATCA hearings in DC were in fact ‘Kabuki Dance’ and did little to derail the FATCA train. His words are nothing less than a declaration of war on the ‘most egregious’ example of extraterritoriality, FATCA. It’s a relief that people like him are not framing it as a US person tax compliance issue, but as a threat to Canada’s national sovereignty.

  17. For anyone interested in signing up for CARP – so as to correspond with them as members ;
    Online membership info at CARP site https://secure.cdsglobal.ca/carp/subscriptions/single says:

    “Note: CARP membership is FREE to spouses or partners who reside at the same address.”

    So it looks as if a spouse/partner would be free, and the basic membership is only 14.95.

    You don’t have to be retirement age to join. “Our members no longer need be retired.  In fact, we’ve removed any age
    barrier from membership. 40 year-olds start planning their ‘retirement’
    and have 65 year-old parents. 50-somethings are the sandwich generation,
    often supporting children and worrying about their own parents, while
    the 60-plus are redefining what it means to age; living longer,
    stronger, more vital lives.”

    Here’s a bio for Susan Eng – (a former tax lawyer amongst other stellar qualifications)

    http://www.carp.ca/about-carp/bios/susan-eng/

    I like their e-voice tool which makes sending e-mail messages to multiple politicians very easy. http://www.carp.ca/evoice/

  18. And, how much of this do we do to ourselves by letting it all happen in front of our eyes, but not seeing / hearing / thinking critically ?

    A related comment about mass media, from “DemoCRIPS and ReBLOODicans”…

    “We can blame the media for many things, but in the end, we have only ourselves to blame for allowing our media to be dumbed down. We don’t live in North Korea where we would be required to have our televisions modified to receive only state-owned stations. We have a choice. … What is the matter with us? Are we so desperate for entertainment that we have to go to the evening news for it? We need to take responsibilities for our choices. When we become passive consumers and allow them to do our thinking for us, we’ve agreed to let them lead us into any opinion they like. If we don’t step up and tell them to knock it off, what’s their incentive to stop?”

  19. @Brockers…

    Hey, there are some excellent comments on the WSJ blog, and you have really written the “rest of the story” that was neglected.  Thanks for making them.  I am somewhat behind the curve and just added mine, number 11.

    For succinct, I liked this one.

      • AmericanMoron wrote :

      That’s it?

      The most important international tax and regulatory initiative of the last 20 years – revolutionary in its breadth and scope – and this is all you have to say about it?

    • *Cut and paste…

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      bruce.stanton@parl.gc.ca

      Lise.St-Denis@parl.gc.ca

      Kennedy.Stewart@parl.gc.ca

      peter.stoffer@parl.gc.ca

      brian.storseth@parl.gc.ca

      Mark.Strahl@parl.gc.ca

      Mike.Sullivan@parl.gc.ca

      david.sweet@parl.gc.ca

      glenn.thibeault@parl.gc.ca

      david.tilson@parl.gc.ca

      Lawrence.Toet@parl.gc.ca

      vic.toews@parl.gc.ca

      Philip.Toone@parl.gc.ca

      Jonathan.Tremblay@parl.gc.ca

      brad.trost@parl.gc.ca

      Bernard.Trottier@parl.gc.ca

      justin.trudeau@parl.gc.ca

      Susan.Truppe@parl.gc.ca

      Nycole.Turmel@parl.gc.ca

      merv.tweed@parl.gc.ca

      tim.uppal@parl.gc.ca

      Bernard.Valcourt@parl.gc.ca

      Frank.valeriote@parl.gc.ca

      dave.vankesteren@parl.gc.ca

      peter.vanloan@parl.gc.ca

      maurice.vellacott@parl.gc.ca

      mike.wallace@parl.gc.ca

      mark.warawa@parl.gc.ca

      chris.warkentin@parl.gc.ca

      jeff.watson@parl.gc.ca

      john.weston@parl.gc.ca

      rodney.weston@parl.gc.ca

      David.Wilks@parl.gc.ca

      John.Williamson@parl.gc.ca

      alice.wong@parl.gc.ca

      stephen.woodworth@parl.gc.ca

      lynne.yelich@parl.gc.ca

      terence.young@parl.gc.ca

      Wai.Young@parl.gc.ca

      Bob.Zimmer@parl.gc.ca

      craig.scott@parl.gc.ca

    • @all- I wonder what would happen if the Canadian government just granted refugee status to all U.S. persons who are residing within its borders on the date that FATCA takes effect?

      Since FATCA and citizenship based taxation essentially makes life outside of the U.S. impossible for U.S. persons living abroad couldn’t they qualify as refugees under the provisions of the Canadian refugee act which protect people from forcible return to their country of origin if the have a reasonable and real fear of political persecution?  And that there is a real probability that they would subjected to cruel and unusual punishement upon their return.  Certainly facing ostracization by your local community and economic harm from having to leave your home and employment would be cruel and unusual punishment.

      It would take a brave government to do such a thing but it can be done.

      http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/inside/apply-who.asp

       

    • @recalcitrant,

      Now that is a way Canada could handle this and could be a brilliant go-around to the extra-territoriality and over-reach of the US for ‘deemed US persons’ in other countries. It especially might be considered for the adult children (and others) who do not have the mental capacity to renounce the US citizenship themselves. Could this be done in Canada by parents / Guardians / Trustees on their behalf if we deem that in their best interests?

      I really like this idea — your good thinking on this. Thanks for throwing that idea out here, recalcitrant.

      But then, we are already in Canada.

    • @recalcitrant, how about the Canadian government sending a real message by banning US persons from emigrating to Canada because of the burden we will soon place on other Canadian citizens? This burden will continue to exist whether or not a US citizen is tax compliant, in that financial institutions will forever need to be vigilant in doing the job that the US government has outsourced to them.

    • This is of course perfectly logical – Simply ban US citizens from emigrating or immigrating.  This will certainly cause the US political establishment to wake up and pay attention.  But I feel a bit bothered that we, the small people on the ground, would risk being de-humanised and made into a simple statistic – An undesirable drain on the national economy.  Well friends we are that undesirable statistic at the moment – All of us would be stuck in the US at the moment if the above had been true for the past decades or longer.  How would you treat accidental Americans under this sort of plan?  Forcibly expel everyone who just happened to be born across the border because the nearest hospital was in the US? 

      I fear for the near future, because I well and truly do believe that some sort of scenario could very well come to pass where it will be, for all intents and purposes, impossible on a practical level to live overseas as a US person.   If you can’t even get medical insurance or open a bank account many won’t even be able to study overseas – In France, for example, foreign students need to have valid private insurance in the country and in Switzerland all foreign students need to open a Swiss bank account.  US students won’t be able to study in these countries I imagine in a couple of years if things continue as they are, to say nothing of people who are actually trying to make a living as permanent residents and full-time workers overseas.  There won’t need to be any formal declaration that US citizens are unwelcome overseas – FATCA will ensure that US citizens who try will simply give up and leave or renounce citizenship if they can.  

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