Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Is it really Wealthy Americans who are Queuing to Give Up Passports in the Swiss Capital?

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 27 Comments

Maybe.  That is what the Bloomberg Business Week Headline says. Since this is a story about Switzerland, it is a good attention catching headline which plays upon a bias that all Americans living in Switzerland must  be wealthy.  Or,  I would bet, it is an editor choosing a title to catch attention.  That is what they do!  I thought I would post it, in case some of you have not yet seen the story. I also wanted to point out that Andy Sundberg has been prominently mentioned at the beginning of the article.

About 1,780 expatriates gave up their nationality at U.S. embassies last year, up from 235 in 2008, according to Andy Sundberg, secretary of Geneva’s Overseas American Academy, citing figures from the government’s Federal Register. The embassy in Bern, the Swiss capital, redeployed staff to clear a backlog as Americans queued to relinquish their passports.

Some of you may recall, that I have previously posted several of his commentaries here, here, here, here and here.  If you are not familiar with Andy, or his commentary, you might want to take some time to review them and his background.

27 thoughts on “Is it really Wealthy Americans who are Queuing to Give Up Passports in the Swiss Capital?”

  1. There is a website called “English Forum CH” which has lots of posts in the finances and taxation sub forum on the subject. I can’t seem to access the page today, but if you go to the site and search “citizenship renunciation/renounce citizenship” you will get lots of posts on the subject. The last time I was on this site most people seemed to be doing it due to banking problems and the crazy penalties and numbers of forms, though I imagine that a significant number might actually be better off financially as well due to the way taxes work in Switzerland and the weakness of the dollar…

    http://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php

  2. Any bets on how long before the first appearance of the always hilarious “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!” epigram in a comment? How my sides split every time I see that witty and artfully crafted riposte. It’s almost as if Oscar Wilde is still with us.

  4. Nice find. Encourage everyone to get in there early and leave comments while it’s still empty. It’s a good opportunity to set the tone of the discussion so it doesn’t get dominated by the kinds of idiots Watcher is talking about. I left the first comment 🙂

  5. The problem in CH is that we all look wealthy due to the high cost of living and salaries, even if average or below average by CH standards. Add to this the fall of the dollar, the sky high swiss franc, lower taxes in CH compared to US so little to offset, and an outdated tax accord that lets everything fall through the cracks. Major differences in tax approach mean pensions and CH third pillar savings accounts are taxed up the wazoo even though meant to be tax advantagous in CH; definitely makes it near impossible to live being double taxed on most everything.

  6. The problem with low income tax countries like CH, Dubai, or Hong Kong is because everyone has higher “disposable” income, you end up paying the “cost-of-living” tax. Rent, eating out, everything is priced up to reflect this situation.

    This is why citizenship-based taxation is wrong and unfair. The US is not the “gold standard” for ex-pats and never will be.

    This is why non-filers will continue to be non-filers and why resistance to FATCA will increase as we approach 2013.

    We’re in that strange place before implementation of FATCA where some people have been hurt (mainly through refusal of banking services or forced closure of accounts) but not every ex-pat has been afftected. That time will end as we enter 2013 then the sh*t will hit the fan and further felt when the pass-thru payment issue supposedly will be enforced in 2017.

    That’s why both sides of the fence need to be played, help Sen Paul and like-minded people like him, and kick up a stink to your local European government. Carl Levin and others have no sympathy for ex-pats.

  7. Any bets on how long before the first appearance of the always hilarious “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!” epigram in a comment? How my sides split every time I see that witty and artfully crafted riposte. It’s almost as if Oscar Wilde is still with us.

    I’ve heard that and also that I am also a chicken. That’s why when they try to invade my Canada, I will fight to the death to protect her. Because I am a chicken. Well, they were lucky that their flag was still there the last time there was a battle. Makes for a great anthem, which I paraphrase: “We nearly got our asses kicked by the Canadians, when we invaded Canada and then, when they burned down our Whitehouse; but at the end of the battle Ft McHenry, our flag was still there.”

  10. My email to the author:

    Dear Mr. Broom:

    Thank you for your fine article which tells the story of people like me who have relinquished their citizenship. I like very much the overall tone of the argument and you get very close to the heart of the matter.

    To nitpick: It actually took me over one year (not three months) to receive a CLN. If you relinquish rather than renounce, there is no $450 fee. Thus I am encouraging folks to relinquish rather than renounce. The exit tax on expats is exacted only after the CLN is issued; if your assets are already abroad, there is practically no way for the IRS to collect, unless the ex-citizen pays it voluntarily.

    I want finally to take exception to the title of the article as it appeared at Bloomberg. I am not a “covered expatriate”, among those who Congress decided to hit with an exit tax to force them to stay in the United States with their wealth. I am not that wealthy, and the vast majority of Americans that I know who are relinquishing have similar wealth or even less than I do. We are fleeing the financial jihad of the United States against its expats. We are not wealthy by Congress’ definition, and therefore, we do not have the ability to fight this jihad without renouncing our citizenship. This quote is actually much closer to the truth than the headline: “Every dollar you save, you lose to the U.S. tax man,” said tax lawyer Ledvina. “That’s one reason why people give up citizenship.” So you see, if I put money in Canadian registered savings account, a tax shelter like RRSP or TFSA, I end up paying less taxes in Canada and this will trigger taxes in the United States. Not wanting to pay taxes in two countries, I was forced to tell the IRS to take a hike by giving up my US citizenship.

    Please contact me if you have any questions. I was mentioned in Atossa Abrahamian’s article on Renunciation. My phone number is Toronto xxx-xxx-xxxx.

    Thank you and good day.

    Peter W. Dunn
    isaacbrocksociety.com

  11. @petros: My phone number is Toronto …

    Can I suggest you obscure your phone number in this post (assuming it’s real). I understand you’re no longer in hiding, as it were, but even so I’m guessing you probably don’t want any old nut-job calling you day and night.

  12. @all…
    I just emailed the journalist Giles and did get an acknowledgement which was pleasantly surprising. I said this….

    Thanks for your article. Your story was pretty good at explaining the situation for US expats living abroad, but the title was unfortunate.

    I assume this was a choice of an editor. Sure there are some wealthy renouncing their citizenship due to US tax complexity, but this really is not a story of the Wealthy. It is a middle class average person story. Hopefully readers will get beyond the headline and read what you really said which did a good job.

    Here was another story by Reuters on the situation…

    http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/04/16/reuters-article-attosa-abrahim/

    and the interview… Now does Peter Dunn sound like the wealthy to you?

    http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/04/22/the-peter-dunn-x2-interview-uploaded/

    I did appreciate the content of the story, as it was pretty good really in a broader perspective. It would have been better if the title didn’t have Wealthy in it, as it fits the bias that the uninformed would believe about the IRS offshore jihad. However, I am pretty sure it was an editor’s choice, not the journalist.

    So, if you write Giles Broom, don’t flame him for the headline. Thank him for the content. Remember he also said this,

    “American Citizens Abroad, a Geneva-based organization that campaigns for taxation based on residency, said the government doesn’t always distinguish between U.S.-based tax dodgers with offshore accounts and expatriates that need foreign banking services.”

    He is attempting to write on the totality of the story, and I don’t find it a bad story if an person comes to it without a bias and were to actually read it. There is nothing we can do about the drive by headline readers. We will never reach them anyway! 🙂

    @Watcher…

    As for the comments, yes there are the usual ones, and we will never convince them all, but there are also there were some good ones like from Ellen Wallace, which would be nice to find and invite her over to Isaac Brock.

    Finally, there is another FATCA story at WSJ that has only 3 comments so far, so you are welcome to take a hack at it too…

    Title: FATCA Creating A Compliance Gold Rush

  13. Anyone try to post on the disqus thread and have all their posts deleted/moderated out?

  15. yep–super moderating seems to be at work, anyone care to inquire with the author? or perhaps the use of the word ‘discrimination’ in my post is banned

  16. I just posted a comment on this piece, and last I looked it was still there, but incase there is some phantom moderating at work, I will repeat here. Nothing new or earth shaking. Just trying to reach some “Real Americans” .. 🙂

    Just_Me_

    Well, not sure I buy that this is a story just about the Wealthy. I know editors think that “wealthy” in a Headline attracts readers, and they are not wrong. There certainly are some wealthy that hand in their passports, but everything I read tells me the story is much broader and more mainstream than many Americans living in the Homeland like to believe or know. I know of many examples of average middle class Americans living in Canada going exactly the same route.

    Fact is, there have been millions of Americans living fairly normal average lives in many countries around the world for many years. Then, 3 years ago, on the heels of the USB tax evasion schemes for homeland Americans, along comes the IRS jihad against offshore accounts enforcing FBAR regulations that have never really been enforced before and few knew about. Rather than make it easy for Americans abroad become compliant, the IRS has imposed some pretty draconian penalties in a “one size fits all” regime, and it has soured the atmosphere for some pretty average Americans.

    Then comes FATCA and all the new regulations that are shutting Americans out of normal banking services, and new duplicative IRS form reporting for all your offshore assets in the countries where you live with serious penalty threats if you fail to comply, and enough is enough. If this was happening to Americans in the Homeland, the uprising would make the Tea party look like a very civil affair.

    Bottomline, it is not evasion or avoidance of taxes as much as it is of shedding uncertainty about what stupidity the U.S. Congress will come up with next to make its Citizen’s lives overseas miserable. It is the Complexity, Stupid. Not the taxes! End U.S. Citizenship taxation, unique in the world, and all of this explosion of Citizenship renouncing would stop.

  17. Posted a comment on the Bloomberg article. I have to admit to feeling grateful for such a strong sense of solidarity that you all have and how much time you all spend getting the word out: On nearly every article with comments that I come across on this subject I always see familiar faces 🙂

  19. This story made it to the Seattle Times. Being from that region of the Country, decided I could not let an opportunity pass to post a comment there. Doing a quick search on FATCA, I could see that the Times have never done a story, so someone has to mention it.

    It is posted as FBAR_Compliant

  20. @ Just Me
    It’s just me, Em, wondering if you ever sleep? You seem to be tireless and I hope you know how much your efforts are appreciated.

  21. Em… I sleep in spats… LOL I must admit this whole mess is consuming me these days. What is inspiring me is how many more are getting off their duffs and joining in. Sometimes comments online and emails to journalist seem hopeless, but momentum does build from individual actions, and now and then you get a break through. So, I try to do my part to fight back against these misguided Congressional and IRS policies. We know they are doing great harm, but many of the readers at the Seattle Times, for example, have no idea. It is my job to try and inform them.

  22. @Joe Expat…

    Thanks for the link to that blog. I posted a comment there too. The more the merrier!

  23. Another article here. This one’s extremely anti-expat (and possibly libellous), so put on flame-proof underpants before wading in:

    “DENVER (MarketWatch) — A few words for anyone who has renounced U.S. citizenship just to save a few bucks on their taxes: Go. Just go. Don’t come back.
    …
    You and about 1,780 other expatriates did this last year, according to Andy Sundberg, secretary of Geneva’s Overseas American Academy, as quoted in a report this week by Bloomberg. That’s up from 235 in 2008, when the U.S. launched a major crackdown on UBS for helping ingrates like you illegally dodge their taxes.”

    Sigh. What a twit.

  24. @Watcher

    Great find…

    Love this quote: “You are worried about creeping socialism. Yet you have decided to go where socialism has long crept? ”

    News for the author – Actually, “socialism” isn’t a dirty word where I’m from, and, no, I’m not at all worried about it and gladly came home 😛

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