Please Note: The US State Department under John Kerry, who served in Viet Nam, is now charging $2350 to receive any CLN whether one has relinquished or renounced. So if you are coming to this only now, you are SOL when it comes to getting a free CLN.
See also Relinquishing your US citizenship in Germany
Those of us who have participated in the Expat Forum have seen that one of the first things that many many newbies say is, “I am going to renounce my US citizenship as soon as I have my Canadian citizenship.” Now, I want to suggest that one should never renounce their citizenship if they can relinquish it instead. Months ago I wrote a post on this subject, which I provide below.
But first, some explanations: Renouncing is one of seven ways to lose your citizenship. It requires swearing an oath in front of an official of the US government and it now has a $450 fee attached to it. Relinquishing does not require a US government official, for it is one of several acts that a US citizen can perform that can result in a loss of citizenship, provided the person intends to lose it. Then, the former citizen must only inform the State Department, not so as to validate the relinquishing act, but to make sure that the US government understands what your intent was when you performed it.
It has become clear that there are several advantages to relinquishing over renouncing:
(1) Relinquishment takes the act of losing your citizenship out of the hands of the US government. This has two benefits. (a) There should be no fee because it doesn’t require a US government official–it doesn’t take place in a US Consulate–you only go to the consulate to inform them of a fait accompli, and it only takes one visit, unlike renunciation which usually take two visits. (b) This saves you $450, or it should, because you are not requiring the services of the Consulate–you are there only to inform them of your intention when you committed a potentially expatriating act such as making a pledge to a foreign power.
(2) Relinquishment is usually a positive act which cannot be confused with an expatriation to avoid taxes. You do it so that you can take part in foreign government or to vote in the country you live in, not so that you can avoid US taxes.
(3) Relinquishment is not a renunciation of your citizenship, so much as a positive act vis-a-vis your new home and country. It is not a repudiation of your country but an acknowledgement that dual citizenship is an unworkable absurdity. Thus, relinquishment comes with less stigma, potentially.
Finally, a caveat is in order. Don’t do one thing and say another. That is don’t relinquish your citizenship then travel on US passport, pay tax in the US, register your children born abroad as US citizens, or take up a residence or a job in the USA, except as one holding a legitimate permit to reside or work in the US as an alien. If a person does any of these things, the State Department may not accept your relinquishment. Those who desire to lose their citizenship but who have done such things after the relinquishing act, may need to renounce their citizenship after all.
So without further ado, here is my original post, “Renunciation of US citizenship: On avoiding the new $450 renunciation fee (update 2), which explains in greater detail, what would constitute a relinquishing act:
Renunciation of US citizenship: On avoiding the new $450 renunciation fee (update 2)
I’ve been pretty upset that it would cost me $450 to renounce my citizenship now that the US consulate in Toronto has instituted a fee. But today I was looking at the various government websites: Consider this website from the US state department and its explanation of how to renounce US citizenship:
Section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481) governs how a U.S. citizen shall lose U.S. nationality. Section 349(a) states:
A person who is a national of the United States whether, by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality:(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense.
Now perhaps it would interest readers to know that this government website is not telling the whole story: The U.S.C. 1481 lists several other ways that a natural born US citizen may lose their citizenship. Here is the full text (emphasis mine):
§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.
I swear or affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to her Majesty Queen of Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties a Canadian Citizen.
An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. citizenship may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was performed with an intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Of course, a person always has the option of seeking to formally renounce U.S. citizenship abroad in accordance with Section 349 (a) (5) INA.
Update 2: Today a consular officer called me from the US consulate in Toronto. She confirmed what I’ve said in this post, that relinquishing US citizenship and renouncing US citizenship are two different processes that are treated in a different manner by the consulate (including the fee structure).
@Keith
Pay very good attention to the application for German citizenship. In my (lay persons) opinion, it should itself constitute an expatriating act, since you already state your loyalty to the BRD by submitting the application. In that case, you shouldn’t do anything (vote in the US, travel on US passport, etc.) which would jeopardize your intention to relinquish.
@Dottie
There is no rhyme or reason why some names appear on the list and some don’t.
There have been rich and poor among us, relinqishers and renouncers, who have appeared or not, although I have not heard of any green card surrenders being included.
It would be interesting to have a survey of all of us here to ascertain the % of inclusion on the list say after a certain length of time. It sounds to me to be less than 50% !
Dottie,
Congratulations on finally getting your CLN, 20 months after your date of renunciation. Yes, free at last.
Yes, it is apparent …
Eric has posted his latest Brock commentary on this subject: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/05/07/late-unreliable-federal-register-expatriates-list-causes-political-dispute-in-haiti/.
Your assumption, though, does not have merit …
I was more than OK in seeing my name and that of my husband and my daughter on that skewed *Name and Shame* list awhile back, though long after our renunciations in 2012. I can assure you, and we proved in our last US Forms 8854 submitted, that we are NOT among the very wealthy. That has been the report of many others here at Brock who appear on the quarterly Federal Register publications. Other than that, I don’t understand why the wealth of a person would have anything to do with a list dubbed *Name and Shame*.
Welcome to Isaac Brock, Dottie. And, again, big congratulations for having gotten as far as you have in the absurdity of all of this.
Interesting that it seems their “quarterly update” is not at all current. I will keep checking the “quarterly” reports and I would be very proud to see my name there!
As to the passport issue: I do not use a U.S. passport to travel in any case, as I have always considered myself Canadian. This includes travel to the U.S. In fact, to further support my relinquishment claim (based on government employment), I am planning to bring old Canadian passports that show U.S. entry stamps. The fact that I have entered the U.S. as a Canadian over the years should further demonstrate that I never intended to be American. Those rude brutes at Pearson airport who pass for U.S. customs agents sometimes make a comment, and sometimes don’t. I will obviously continue to travel on a Canadian passport before and after my consulate appointment, as I have always done. The worst they can do is deny entry, but I would sooner never step foot in the U.S. again than travel on an American passport.
In my case I renounced in February 2012, had my CLN in March 2012, and the final 2012 tax forms filed in early 2013, but my name did not appear on the ‘list’ until Q2 of 2013 (published in July 2013).
I wonder if any of you knowledgeable people can help me make sense of my situation? I was born in the US to a Canadian father ( he was Canadian at the time of my birth but later he became a US citizen ), and an American mother. I was moved to Canada by my father when I was 12. When I was in my 20’s, I obtained Canadian citizenship…I did not have to apply for it, I was a” delayed registration of birth abroad”. In other words I was recognized as a Canadian citizen born on foreign soil ( as far as Canada is concerned ). I never worked in the US, never had a US social security number, never used US consular services when I worked over seas, never claimed US citizenship for any reason, never took a cent from the US, and only carried a Canadian Passport. I have always identified myself as Canadian.
Do I still have to relinquish/renounce? Would they have any record of me if my Canadian bank doesn’t betray me?
Every situation is unique. How many years have you been in Canada.? Do you have any other US connectios and so on.
The answer to your question is probably not. Most records are classified by SS number? And if they did, what can they do about it? You are a minnow. Think hard before jumping into the net.
@Mary,
The State department defines “naturalization” as obtaining citizenship after birth by any means whatsoever. Since you acquired it by birth, you’d have to renounce under section 5 most likely. Section 1 requires naturalization.
@Mary
My history is the same as yours.
You have been a dual national/citizen since birth. The US still considers you a US citizen. The IRS considers you as a potential taxpayer on world-side income (if you earn more than the filing threshold). You are reportable by FATCA and obligated to file FBARs etc.
Those are the facts. Whether or not you’ll ever get caught if you do nothing cannot be known. Your Canadian passport shows your US place of birth so it can be a problem if you ever enter the US again. Your financial institutions may or may not know of your US taint and they may or may not ever ask. Some have. More may ask in the future even thought they haven’t asked yet.
Advice will vary here from “do nothing”, to “renounce but don’t file taxes” to “renounce and file taxes”.
If you joined the military or worked for a level of government (including municipal or provincial) prior to June 2004, you might be able to claim a past relinquishment and not have to file any taxes. A relinquishing act after 2004 will save you the US$2350 renunciation fee, but you’d still be on the hook for tax filing. Professional help to file taxes and FBARs can range from $2,000 to $50,000 or more. Getting a US SS number or ITIN in order to file is not a simple process.
Obama’s Green Book budget proposal, which did not pass, included a provision that would have allowed a person with _your_ history to get rid of your US citizenship without filing taxes. Perhaps this relief will show up again in the coming years. Some people are laying low hoping for such relief, or the end of citizen-based taxation by the US, the overturn of FATCA reporting in Canada, the repeal of FATCA in the US itself, etc. Doing nothing and waiting can be a reasonable option if no financial institution reports you under FATCA and it you never enter the US again.
@ Mary.
Something to consider re renunciation and relinquishment, it is not possible, as T points out, to relinquish by naturalisation if a person is already a citizen (s. 349(a)(1) Immigration and Nationality Act).
However, if a person takes government employment (federal, provincial, municipal) (s. 349(a)(4) (A) or joins the military s. 349(a)(3)(B), with the intention of relinquishing their US citizenship by performing such act, that is a relinquishing act. In such case, a Certificate of Loss of Nationality, although applied for today, would attest to the citizenship loss occurring the date that the relinquishing act was performed. Perhaps one of these sub-articles applies to you.
But definitely, don’t rush into anything. Read a lot and mull over the various options you can take along with the option of doing nothing .
Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)
Thread: Relinquishment of US Citizenship by Persons-Born-Dual or who Naturalised in a Foreign Country as a Minor
Reports: Reports by Persons who Relinquished US citizenship Upon Taking Government Employment
@Mary, welcome to IBS. There are many here in the same/similar situation. If you don’t get an answer on this thread, try posting to this one:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/
I am not knowledgeable enough about your type of situation but I know from reading here that this scenario has been addressed before at the thread above.
I myself do not use my passport as ID to open any account, due to your US birthplace. As one born in the US as well, though I have relinquished, filed all necessary (and onerous and expensive paperwork demanded by the US) and have my CLN, I am against the very question of proving my citizenship status vis a vis the US just on principle. So I will not provide or acknowledge to any financial institution (or non-financial ones like certain types of insurance, which FATCA also applies to) that I have any (Canadian only, now) passport at all – because it shows my US birthplace.
It seems unlikely – though still possible – at this point that your bank will ask about your US birth or citizenship as far as we can tell if your accounts are pre-existing (prior to July 1, 2014 – which is the date that the Canadian FATCA IGA took force), especially if the accounts are “…… The following registered plans will be exempt from reporting:
Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs)
Tax Free Savings Accounts (TFSAs)
Registered Disability Savings Plans (RDSPs)
Registered Pension Plans (RPPs)
Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs)
Pooled Registered Pension Plans (PRPPs)
Registered Education Savings Plans (RESPs)
AgriInvest Accounts
Deferred Profit-Sharing Plans”
According to https://www.alterna.ca/OnlinePolicies/SecurityAndPrivacy/FATCA/
The accts above are ones which the IGA says do not have to be reported ( but which the financial institution is not actually forbidden to report).
According to the CRA FAQs on the FATCA IGA, the bank does not have to ask you your birthplace ( see; “… A financial institution does not have to ask its account holders about their place of birth. If a financial institution, applying the due diligence rules of the agreement to its accounts, finds records that have an unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth, the financial institution must treat the account as a reportable account or follow up with the account holder to obtain documentation that shows he or she is not a U.S. resident or a U.S. citizen. ” http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ndvdls-eng.html ) If the other accounts are routine chequing and savings and do not contain in aggregate more than a certain threshold they may also pass under the radar for scrutiny for now if no other ‘US indicia’ is present (ex. a US forwarding postal address or any other US address associated with the acccount) or personal knowledge by a bank employee that you have any US connection. See for example this explanation https://www.ctf.ca/ctfweb/EN/Newsletters/Canadian_Tax_Focus/2014/3/140303.aspx
However, people have reported problems opening certain investment accounts (even at local credit unions) as they have been asked to sign certain declarations as to whether or not they are US taxable persons, and asked re citizenship. See ex. this ongoing thread;
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/your-experiences-banking-dealing-with-consulates-entering-the-us/
Some credit unions have been better than banks but not all ( ex. http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/are-other-canadian-credit-unions-being-as-responsible-about-fatca-as-vancity/ ).
Please consider helping us to challenge the FATCA IGA in Canada – and get it declared unconstitutional and illegal.
Consider donating to the legal challenge http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/DonateADCS.html .
The first hearing of our legal challenge was heard in Vancouver on August 4-5, and we are currently awaiting a judge’s decision due in September (13th?) on whether we can get an injunction to stop the Canadian government from sending the US the first set of FATCA mandated data collected from Canadian financial (and some non-financial) institutions as remitted by the FIs and non-FIs to the CRA for transmission to the IRS/US Treasury (and then subjected to the US Patriot Act, etc.). See blog here https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/youcantmakethisup-the-obama-administration-blames-americansabroad-for-fatca-injuries/
Good luck.
@all, sorry, didn’t see your posts to mary before I posted mine.
@mary, others here like Pacifica have a much better command of the details re renouncing in your situation. I defer to them.
best of luck.
@Mary,
There is one more relinquishment possibility if you were born before October 10, 1953. This is INA 350. Are you old enough?
Hello – I am new to this forum and in the same situation as many of you – born in the States to a Canadian mother and U.S. father, obtained Canadian citizenship when I was about 8 and have lived in Canada since I was 19 (now 46). I did choose to start filing tax returns and the fbar because I worked in the U.S. as a teenager and have a social security number. Other than the fee to the accountant who does this for me there has been no repurcussion as far as taxes are concerned – I pay way more here than I would in the states. I know I am “small fry” but chose to do this to protect myself and my family.
My question refers to voting in a federal election in Canada. The blog above states: “(2) Relinquishment is usually a positive act which cannot be confused with an expatriation to avoid taxes. You do it so that you can take part in foreign government or to vote in the country you live in, not so that you can avoid US taxes.” I have heard over the years that I am not allowed to vote in a Canadian Federal election. Is this true? At this point in my life, even though I would like to relinquish my U.S. citizenship, I hesitate to jeopardize that citizenship because it may offer my children options (they are not registered u.s. citizens at this point) or choices that I can’t foresee right now.
Does anyone know anything about voting? I am Canadian – I’ve lived here most of my life – it seems logical that I should be able to vote in a federal election…
Thanks!
Marie,
Welcome to Brock. You may find information you need here — start with the links on the right-hand of the home page of Brock. Ask any questions you still have after doing some research — there are many here and someone should be able to answer your specific question or point you to a source of help.
It is unfortunate that you’ve spent your time in Canada thinking that you had no right to vote. You are a Canadian citizen resident in Canada…
http://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=faq&dir=vot&document=index&lang=e
Marie. You heard wrong. Voting in Canada or the U.S. is perfectly OK for you. Many of us wish that voting was a relinquishing act but it isn’t. ( it was until about 1960.). Good luck. P.S. Wait to register your kids until they are able to understand the consequences.
P.p.s. It’s only OK to vote as long as you don’t vote conservative.
@ Marie,
As Duke points out, voting is not a relinquishing act. You can see the list of potentially relinquishing acts in s. 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act. (Relinquishment can only occur when the act is performed (1) voluntarily and (2) with the intention of relinquishing one’s US citizenship by so doing.)
Thank you for this! I was specifically told I couldn’t vote a number of years ago…. Always thought it was true
Thank you – and I hope I never need to register my kids – I didn’t find out until about 4 years ago that they are u.s. citizens. And I won’t be voting conservative!! 🙂
Thank you! It’s nice to find a place where people understand this complicated citizenship thing!
I am desperate and perhaps someone can help? I was born in USA & grew up there and came to the UK at age 18 in 1966. I became a British subject in 1972 and didn’t bother with a US passport (altho I travel to the US every few years) until 2002. Since then I have had 2 passports. I have never paid US taxes (why would I?) but obviously pay UK taxes on my earnings which are about the national average. I need to continue to visit the USA every couple of years and don’t wish to be arrested by over zealous immigration people (or anyone else). I have a renunciation interview at the London Embassy in 2 weeks. Is this necessary?
Yorkshire maid
Reschedule your appointment to next year and take a deep breath
You have a compliance problem and need to assessed your options first
Yorkshire Maid’s compliance problem will remain no matter what option she takes.
Theoretically there’s an option to try for relinquishment instead of renunciation, if she intended to lose US citizenship in 1966 and her only reason for getting a US passport in 2002 was that a US border guard tricked her into it. But is it worth while to take this chance? Now that a relinquishment attempt costs as much as renunciation, and relinquishment might be rejected due to her taking that US passport in 2002, that option looks pretty risky.