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PS If your bank were to ask, which they won’t, you say ‘I’m canadian’ full stop.
@Chester, you and Joe Smith seem to be very certain that we’ll be able to just say I’m Canadian and leave it at that. And I think you’re right to start with. But I have a sneaking suspicion that at some point we will need some sort of document acceptable to the banks for proof (as identified by the IRS). I think that people like me, who don’t have much in the bank are years off the radar, not having $50k+ sitting in a bank account, however, I have no faith that the rules won’t change specifically to catch us little minnows. We that don’t have the money in our accounts also don’t have the money to pay for expensive consultants, and could be considered easy pickin’s. However, I’m certainly not panicking over this, I just wish I shared your faith that the banks will just take us at a our word. My investment firm has already asked me if I was a US citizen, and it’s early days…. Unless you’ve read or seen something I’ve missed, that reassures you? If so, I would love to know as it would take another weight of my shoulders…
sorry WP did it to me again, outragedcanadian is also outragec 🙂
I’ve read the latest draft of the Fatca regs . Accounts under 50 k are exempt. Accounts between 50k and 1 mm are to be checked ‘electronically’ for ‘us indicia’ Looking mainly for a US address. They don’t know and don’t have a right to know where you were born. Over 1 mm your private investment advisor is supposed to vouch for you. RRSPs, TFSAs, RRIFs are probably exempt. I am not a lawyer.
For new accounts, the rules will be in the future , more strict. They may ask your citizenship. You are canadian. Full stop.
PS they don’t have time for minnows let alone little minnows but if you want to clog the system, feel free.
Chester12:
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. For twenty years I have been aware of all this and my solution was to 1) ask my Credit Union what my citizenship was and they said Canadian. 2) to move all my checking account funds from a chartered bank to this credit union; and 3) to resolve NEVER to cross the border again and 4) assure that my adopted daughter is free of all this by virtue of not having a “biological link” to me as the US regulations put it.
I sleep well and am so chagrined to see so many people suffering over this at the Isaac Brock Society.
@Chester & Joe, just to be clear, personally, I am no longer losing sleep over this, however, I am trying to decide if I need to try and get a CLN or not, for down the road. I am not volunteering for ovdi, or filing any taxes or fbars and do not see how I could do much to clog the system. I’m just trying to think proactively here for when FATCA is implemented. I mean, I hope it gets stopped but I think it’s a forelorn hope. Maybe one day I will come to have the certainty of you two, I certainly hope so, as I do envy it! It’s in my nature to be a worrier, I’m afraid, and that’s hard to turn off.
@outragec, I think the process of trying to get a CLN may put you on the IRS radar, it could be the beginning of a new nightmare. Probably best to just lay low and watch how things play out. The Canadian government may negotiate something on everybody’s behalf. If not then well we could all be exiles in Canada. There are worse places to hide out.
@ outragec, I think the majority on IBS are afraid. Just don’t know the best thing to do!
There are one million of us here in Canada. Margaret Wente, Jeffrey Simpson, Elizabeth May, and many more people in responsible and highly visible positions that I care to mention. And Canadians — luckily — do NOT like the USA and this extends to NDPers, Conservatives, Liberals and just about everybody else.
@OMG, I think you’re probably right. I’m certainly NOT going to rush into anything. I can absolutely live with being an exile in Canada, zero reason for me ever to go to the US again. I’m more concerned about how my mother will react, being the law abiding person she is, and it was a hard fought battle to stop her from filing. That’s mainly where the CLN was going to come in. However, she certainly isn’t aware of any of this, and while I don’t want to keep her in the dark, I’m also trying to calm her down, which I think I’ve done. At any rate, a CLN would probably be the one thing that would allow her to rest easy. However, not going to worry about that for a while.
@Saddened, I think you’re probably right too. Right or wrong, and only time will tell, I think there are more people worried than not.
@Joe, that actually is one of the things that helps give me comfort. I’m a little tiny fish, but there are some high profile and powerful people in this situation that hopefully will refuse to roll over and show their bellies to the IRS….
Have you seen this article…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/help-im-on-the-irs-hit-list/article2171697/
@saddened123
@Chester12
Thanks very much for your kind words
@outragedcanadian
Your blog has been very helpful. I think that there is a link to the Letter that TD Compliance sent to US Treasury. I read that letter carefully. Twice.
@Chester12
TD recommended (last year) to the US Treasury various manual and electronic means to satisfy the US Treasury requirements. All of this aimed at cost reduction, and compliance with PIPEDA and other CDN banking “rules”. One of the manual procedures that TD recommends is that they will request a passport (I *assume* on Account Open). *If* that procedure is ever put in place, then your birthplace on your CDN Passport will be obvious. And the Bank did not, in the literal sense, ask for your birthplace.
At this stage I think that there is some justifiable cause for concern. However I am personally not losing sleep over this aspect of the smouldering turd that has been laid on our doorsteps.
Here is something funny among our dissatisfaction with our place of birth. If the banks are complying by asking for a passport when you open an account – then this might ensure that they don’t lose customers as you will never change. My concern has been dragging my family members into this with my name on joint accounts – but do I believe that the charter banks want to lose 1M accounts in Canada to credit unions. They cannot afford to send every person that has an account a note that says send me your passport and prove your birth. I know for a fact where my investment are I show Canadian – the only thing I am going to do now not out of fear but out of protest is take any of my RRSP that is invested in Obamaworld and invest it elsewhere.
I am hoping that some constitutional lawyer who wants to make a name for him/herself gets off their behinds and takes this up as a cause because I think it has unconstitutional all over it. I agree that there are a lot of people that have deep pockets that are in this mess too and I doubt are going to roll over and play dead.
As for people worried about their kids because they were born to you ….think about it. They have a Canadian passport saying born in Canada – do we really give the U.S. credit for searching out your children and their names if you don’t go forward and comply – which is why I never will unless they come up with a blanket amnesty for those of us who had no idea we were American ever or still.
The people I feel for are those that have to do something because they have close family members there. My parents are gone and my other family members I find think I am some kind of subversive for moving out of the country by choice , then I married a Catholic, and think Canada has turned me into a Socialist. They spend most of their time sending me emails on political things about the U.S. that my husband has to take the keyboard away from me not to rip a strip off of them and tell them to get a brain and think for themselves and stop drinking the koolaid – so can definitely live without seeing them again.
I think that though we are angry – a lot more of it is hurt and disbelief that things are this bad in the U.S. that they stoop to these levels and worse no one is stopping them. I think anyone who has lived there knows we should be a little worried as it is the unknown we always fear – but I am not going to let them ruin my life. I am done with them and will never go back even if I could. I think the only thing they will eventually understand is if this affects their pocketbooks adversely by countries standing up – I hope someone does.
Then stay away from TD.
And BMO, and Scotiabank. Are all already preparing for fatca, some even hiring new people to deal with it. found on plain old google search…
@Proud Canadian
I can certainly relate to ‘the only thing I am going to do now, not out of fear but out of protest, is take any of my RRSP that is invested in Obamaworld and invest it elsewhere’. I mentioned this to several friends and family members. A couple of people said to me that is a ‘bit like shooting yourself in the foot – just compare the market of Canada to the DOW of the last year’. That is true – ours’ lost money big time, theirs made big gains. That ticks me off – not what I want to happen. So if I pull all investments out of the US, I am such ‘small potatoes’, I don’t hurt them much but do I hurt myself because as the saying goes ‘don’t put all your eggs in one basket’.
@tiger
U.S. and Canada aren’t the only places you can invest. There are other countries that are doing better than us. I lost a LOT in my U.S. investments – moreso than the ones I had in Canada and elsewhere – just have to look at the mix.
@CanadianPat, thanks for your kind words on my blog. It’s my escape valve… I have been compiling a list of various banks and firms letters and FAQs on FATCA, and have finally combined and posted the links on my blog.
There’s a very interesting one that lists the various banks & institutions and law firm comments on FATCA, from around the world. I’ll add the link here, in case anyone is interested: http://www.cticompliance.com/fatca_comment_letters.aspx
There must be over 50 letters posted….
I would like to start a compilation of letters or comments on the subject of our value as non-resident Americans to the US and the rest of the world. It is becoming increasingly more and more obvious that the government of the United States of America does not consider its citizen’s living abroad to be of value, in fact, evidence shows that we are considered to be more of a liability. I’m not yet sure how we can use these personal thoughts and opinions, but it may at least be cathartic for some.
My question to everyone is: What is the loss to America when an American renounces his or hers United States citizenship?
@bubblebustin. I think this would make for a very interesting read, but I personally don’t have anything to contribute. I left the US when I was 6 and have really only ever considered myself Canadian. I haven’t thought of the US much at all and until now being born there has had no impact on my life. However, I look forward to reading it!
CanadianPat That’s not exactly what TD recommended and they were ignored in any case. What TD suggested was that they would ask for a passport of those account holders who were not residents of ‘the local tax country’ i.e. for Canadian branches, non residents of Canada.
Since they were ignored, it is moot.
@Chester12
Thanks very much for that clarification. I was unaware that TD was ignored. But maybe I should have expected that given the aggressive nature of the US.
Regardless I appreciate your clarification and I think that it is important for readers of TD’s letter to understand that is now irrelevant.
Thanks.
@bubblebustin
You asked what is the loss to the U.S. when an American renounces their citizenship. It is evident that all the loss is in tax dollars to them nothing else. What they should understand is what is should mean to them. It means that someone that grew up with the beliefs in America and freedom and those that would have gone to battle at what ever cost for them would not any more. When I became Canadian I thought I did give up my citizenship and I took that very seriously and thought hard about it. I still loved the country I grew up in and took pride in my heritage and it had nothing to do with being “upset” at the U.S. It had to do with moving here and believing you can truly only serve one master. If I am going to live in a country, pay taxes and reap the benefits of the social system. If I am going to have a voice I need to vote and be a part of the country I live.
I voted here, I raised my family here, and I have truly become Canadian and if I was required just as I would have when I was American – I would do anything for my country. Though it wasn’t something I didn’t take lightly I didn’t feel I was renouncing or relinquishing my citizenship out of lack of caring about my homeland – it was I just wasn’t living there now. Now I find out I am still considered American by the U.S. and when all of this is settled I am sure I will have to relinquish/renounce most likely and that will have a very different meaning to me. I am doing it because I want nothing more to do with a country that would treat people who were born and proud to be American and what that used to stand for versus just leaving. This is like some bad nightmare. I feel like I am in an espionage movie …. if you read everything on here that people have said, what they have been through…etc. – did anyone really believe something like this was possible?
I guess each generation experiences something they can’t explain and have no control. My in-laws lived through Nazi Germany and for a long time were oblivious to what was really going on. It wasn’t until things were bad that the average citizen knew. I am not comparing in anyway that to this – but it is about a world power using their power how they see fit without any regard for who they hurt. I paid my taxes in the U.S. was a law abiding citizen and if I had known I was not relinquishing/renouncing when I became Canadian – I would have either decided to go through some formal process then or made the decision to remain dual and do what I was suppose to. While I was living here prior to being a citizen, I filed and paid my U.S. tax.
So I am not sure this answered your question of how America feels – I don’t think they care because if they did instead of treating us like criminals they would work through this with us to do what is right for both parties. To make someone who had no idea they were in violation of anything who has paid taxes to a foreign country basically bankrupt themselves and their family and affect their retirement without being reasonable is unconscionable – so I think that really does tell you how it affects them – it doesn’t. It is about dollars and cents and not how hard it is for that person to have to renounce/relinquish .