If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
*kcnileg
June 20, 2012 at 10:39 am
*I have drifted away from the Brock blog because the more I read the more anguished I become.
Since the Consul in Marseille told me I should receive my CLN in
about two months (I have now been waiting for six months), creeping
paranoia is taking over my life. (I am the fool who decided paying
€1,000 for a professional tax consultant was an unjustified expense
since, having no income, I should have been able to fill out my own tax
forms. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!)
I checked the Federal Register for the first quarterly “Name and
Shame” list, but didn’t see my name…yet. The next issue should be coming
out sometime in August. I can’t help wondering, as the length of the
“Name and Shame” list becomes progressively longer if some vestige of
government embarrassment won’t start to set in. Upon reflection, I
doubt it, since the data is entered into some massive, mysterious
database from numerous sources, digested and excreted into the Federal
Register without ever being read, analyzed or evaluated for its
existential meaning by human eyes (aside from those of us searching for
our names so we can consider ourselves duly shamed).
@Just a Canadian,-
Hopefully, the Vancouver US Consulate now has your answers to their 11 questions in hand and we’ll hear that you have your second appointment set for next week. Good luck for the rest of your process! And, thanks again for adding your information here.
@kcnileg, don’t rely on Federal Register “name-and-shame list” accuracy for your renunciation confirmation. It’s widely known to be utterly inaccurate. From renunciationguide.com:
KC, don’t dump on yourself about not using the tax consultant or anything else. Someone pointed out that figuring out how to deal with this convoluted situation, it feels like any decision one makes is the wrong one … it’s a common feeling. You’re working things out now, that’s the important thing.
Have you followed up with the consulate? Always a chance the document is sitting on someone’s in-basket there.
@kcnileg, the lack of clarity, picking our way amidst our various minefields makes the best path unclear to all. There is no shame in not being able to see into the future, or failure to pick the ‘right’ one. Some of it only seems clearer, late after the fact – when earlier we were forced to make choices with too little information, however we could. Those with the power to clear up the confusion, or to have foreseen this and acted preventively have chosen not to – either to anticipate that there had to be millions that would not have known about all of this, nor have they responded in a timely and constructive way – and thus seem satisfied with the status quo. Even the professionals disagree about many aspects of this. Particularly difficult is the retroactive nature of all this – when the circumstances that precipitated this are already past.
Don’t be hard on yourself for not being able to pierce the fog of uncertainty.
Judging by the popular media, you would think that none of this was happening. So much for the promises to preventively ‘educate’ at the time when some of the most life-altering changes were enacted.
@kcnileg – my first indication that my CLN was processed was that my SSN was invalid which I learned when talking with the IRS about my tax returns.
Just got back from my second appointment today. As with my first appointment there was nobody else in the waiting room and it was very private. The staff were very friendly and professional. I had to read aloud a page of information to make sure that I understood that renouncing did not allow me to transmit citizenship to children, get me out of military or tax obligations and that I would be an “alien” in the future (only in the US…just say foreigner already!). I also had to place my right hand on the oath of renunciation whilst facing the US flag and orally recite the oath. I think that this would have been a bit awkward if the waiting room had been full of people (or anyone really), because the flag was in the centre of the room.
After the appointment I was given a receipt with my name on it for the $450 (paid in Euro), which clearly states that it was for renunciation of US citizenship. They didn’t really know how long that the CLN should take to arrive, but said that there was a backlog earlier in the year which has since been cleared somehow by some sort of new procedure that they are doing. I didn’t ask for any copies of anything, since I definitely got the impression that they would be giving these out later on only. To be honest, the receipt is perfectly adequate for me at the moment and I didn’t push the point since I am not being rendered without a passport in the meantime. They of course took the US passport during the appointment and said that they would give it back with the CLN, which I will pick up in person. They also made a copy of my EU passport.
I just wish that I didn’t have to wait so long to be able to file the 8854, 1040 and FBARs for this year. When does the US typically release the tax forms for each year? Anyway, I’m not really celebrating yet or anything since I don’t feel like everything is done until I have the CLN in hand! I do, however, owe a huge thanks to everyone at the IBS and to those of you who were also on the old Expat Forum for all of the guidance and experiences that you have shared – It was much easier to figure everything out with a strong community supporting me and everyone else going through this! Thanks everyone.
@Don, well, I’m sad that you had to do this. But I am happy for you that you are able to come to this point and had the resolve to do it. Thanks so much for your involvement at Isaac Brock.
I had to scream when I saw (I had not realized this) that the US still claims the right to oblige a former citizen vis-a-vis military service. What a joke! They want the person to keep paying taxes and keep fighting their wars for them. Get a life.
I have a new country to defend now. I can’t be made to fight for the United States ever again.
@Don
I sense very mixed emotions – quite understandable. I hope that you continue your contributions to this blog – you have been and continue to be an important contributor. All of us, on a emotional level feel a sense of loss when renouncing. Citizenship his a part of who we are. But the level of abuse we are subjected to by the U.S. government means that for any U.S. citizen who is living outside the United States, you must choose one of the two following options:
1. Be a U.S. citizen
2. Have a chance at a happy life
Obviously, we must all go with option 2.
Congratulations!
*@Don – Glad it worked out for you. Being made to recite the oath *at* the flag is wonderfully superstitious – the rules only say it has to be present.
In Toronto, we just pushed pieces of paper back and forth under the glass – it was sort of like doing something at the bank.
@Don Pomodoro,
What is there to say except I’m glad that you have completed your second appointment and now have a $450 receipt in hand while waiting for the CLN. You’ve done most of the difficult part — one step at a time, keeping on keeping on. I don’t know if ‘congratulations’ is the right word for getting through these procedures, but Congratulations.
Thanks for all of your contributions and support for all of us here too.
@Don
Tax forms are typically released in January for the previous year.
I would prefer to file all this stuff ASAP rather than later as well.
@ Don, for your information, you are not a US citizen any more, whether you complete the IRS portion of the exit obligations. Thus, with the new CLN you can show the banks and everyone else that you are not a citizen. The tax filing procedures are pain in the butt, but they do not at all change the fact that you have no further tax obligations nor any further worries when it comes to banking in Europe. You are free–it’s just that the IRS doesn’t realize yet. Don’t fret about not being able to file until after the forms come out. It’s no big deal.
@peg11
How do you check the validity of a SSN?
The unofficial sites don’t work because my number is less than a month old.
@Don – Wow! Congratulations! I remember many of the earlier discussions at expatforum where it seemed so unreasonable that you should even have to consider going thru all this – so young, no large savings, etc. And you went thru the mess and did it! So glad you are free now. I didn’t have to take the oath with any proximity to the flag but unlike Abrokenman, I had to raise my right hand and swear it. I felt silly at first but then I decided to “deliver” it with all the power I had. I think it kind of surprised the vice consul since both of us had approached the whole thing (both times) as more-or-less, in a low-key way.
@Peg, yes, was going to ask you on the forum. How did you find out your SSN was inactive/invalid? I am 5 months renounced and wonder if I can get any sense it’s been processed by learning my SSN isn’t valid.
@Don: “Free at last, Free at last. Thank God Almighty I’m Free at last.”
(Martin Luther King, Jr.)
*@nobledreamer – I think I would have liked to do it orally – it’s an act that needs at least some form of ritual. It entered my mind in the moment to insist on it, but it seemed way too eccentric, and the last renunciant (very angry/in tears) had left the consular officer visibly kind of drained. Toronto mixes renunciants with people there on other consular business, and I suspect they’ve found that having emotional people reading the oath semi-publicly adds problems to problems.
@All
Thank you so much for the support! When I first found out about FATCA, FBARs, etc a couple of years ago I was fuming mad and wanted to march straight down to the consulate that very week. What I’ve found though is that its easy to write online or tell people that you will renounce citizenship, but to actually do so was so much harder than I ever imagined and was very personally draining even for an “accidental” like me – Without sounding overly dramatic this was probably still one of the hardest decisions that I ever have had to make (and I hope ever have to make). I just kept getting the same thoughts in my head which kept making me hesitate:
If there were no FATCA or if I were resident in Canada I probably wouldn’t have done it – I had to draw the line at losing all of my bank accounts and possibly being booted from my health insurance, something that doesn’t seem to yet be an issue in Canada since the banks don’t have info on your birth place or nationality necessarily. I also was not going to sign any forms that said that I was a “US person” whilst resident in the EU – I refuse to be classified as a second class citizen or be forced into “special accounts”.
In the end though I just had to remember that the US seems to not be interested at all in getting rid of citizenship-based taxation, that the US border was never exactly my preferred place to be in the first place and that if things stay the way that they are now or get worse that any future children might very well thank me for making this decision. FATCA seems set to stay as well…Only time will tell I suppose if I made the right call I guess, but better to do something unnecessary that will impact my life slightly or not at all than to suffer possible years of being a financial pariah I say. The whole experience has been bittersweet to say the least.
@Don: Thank you for sharing your journey with us.
You have posted before about the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. It sounds like you had to make a Pledge of Disallegiance to the Flag. This gets more and more bizarre all the time.
Congratulations Don. You broke the shackles!
@Don,
It’s a sad commentary that we all have to make these hard decisions to get our life back on track. You absolutely made the right decision and can now move on with your life. Don’t second guess yourself.
Congratulations once again.
*@ A broken man,
I guess it kind of did add an importance to the whole process. I only remember 2 or 3 other people in the waiting area and it didn’t occur to me to worry about what they may have thought. I would imagine they could hear it though as I heard others who had come to renounce, etc.
That’s sad, someone leaving angry and in tears. I really didn’t want to show any emotion whatsoever and was so afraid I wouldn’t be able to do it. I actually did feel rather free when I left and except for one small moment the next day, have not been really sad. I must have a lot of anger still as whenever any discussion about this or other negative strains about the US, I tend to rant. 😉
*@nobledreamer – I’m lucky in a sense, being Canadian from all possible points of view, legally, functionally, etc., so I was kind of clinical about the whole thing, more or less. (I wondered if there would be some momentary discomfort during the procedure, but no.)
I just got entangled in the whole thing because I took out a US passport (USC mother) in the early 90s. Really this was dumb, because I could have done it later any time I wanted, but it seemed important at the time. Later came all these tax problems.
But I can certainly see that a more American American (she had vowels from some mid-Atlantic state) would find the whole thing fundamentally upsetting.
Expatriating can be an emotional experience “even if it is a piece of paper”. Spiegel TV follows the naturalization process of a Turk into the Turkish consulate to give up her citizenship. At 8:10 to 10:25 in this link is where she goes to the Turkish consulate (in German):
http://www.spiegel.tv/#/filme/einbuergerung-zwei-reportage/
Interestingly, the consulate officer states that she has good reason to become German and also informs her that she can reclaim her Turkish citizenship in the future if she wishes.
@Don.
You did the right thing and acted with the best information available to make a decision for yourself and your future family. As my renunciation date approaches, I can appreciate that somewhat bittersweet senitment you must feel right now. Practically, renunciation is the only option, but emotionally it would be nicer not to be forced into the position of having to renounce. In order to have any semblance of a normal life, we must make the tough decisions. Its funny, since coming back to Canada, I usually forget July 4, realising a day or two later that it already passed. This July 4 will be my last as an American, and I’m kind of sad about that. For all my frustration, disappointment and anger about being mistreated by Uncle Sam (military obligations, taxes, being viewed as being a very bad citizen for living abroad), I still appreciate what the US was. It isn’t that way anymore and hasn’t been that way for quite some time. My family, being from Canada, never played a role in US history so I really have no major connection to the American story; nonetheless, to have had the opportunity to be a part of it, even somewhat tangentially and accidentaly, makes this coming July 4 a bit sad. I am starting to view this renunciation process as a school graduation. I came, I saw, I lived it. I played the game, did what I was supposed to do. Now its time to move on with my life and go onto something different and leave that school in the past, with no hard feelings… just being glad its over and knowing that I don’t want to do it again. I hope anyone going through the renunciation process finds this kind of peace. I think it will make swearing the oath of dis-allegience to the flag a bit easier, realising that its been over for a long time and this process just makes it official.