If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@Peg11, I was able to get a copy of my Registration of Birth Abroad through an access to information request. Not only did I get a copy of the certificate, they sent me copies of the complete file, including the original application form my parents filled out and all the letters between the US embassy near where I was born and Ottawa, as well correspondence between Canada and the US. Before approving my Canadian citizenship, Canada first asked the US if my father had become a US citizen. I guess at that time had my father become a US citizen he would have lost Canadian citizenship and he would have been unable to pass it to me. There is a letter from the US confirming my father never became a US citizen. It was all very interesting. I had to send in a form, and photocopies of some identification documents, and I did not have to pay a fee. If you want a piece of your own history you might want to see what is there.
*@Peg – WOW! I am soooo very happy for you, especially that you can have your much-awaited Canada (only) Day party!! Feels like a long time since the many discussions on the expat forum and am so glad to see your process come to a happy end!
@All, BTW, for the record, my strong impression is that Mrs. A may be Canadian but I would bet my life she was born and raised in the US. An accent and rhythm of speaking that is undeniably, American. Not to disappoint however, as she had a graciousness and patience that was just her way, apart from any labels about citizenship.
*@TrueNorth I have not had any luck getting a copy of my Registration of Birth Abroad through Service Canada. Did you get it through an agent or online? What exactly did you do?
@Diane I sent in a form, with a letter attached saying what information I was looking for. Here is a link to the form:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/form-imm5563.asp
The form at the link is now dated May 2012 and now looks different than when I sent it in last year. It looks like there may be a $5.00 fee, I did not pay anything at the time. I sent it to the Access to Information and privacy coordinator at cic, it took just over a month. I also sent a photocopy of my Citizenship card and passport as identification.
If you are having any trouble at all, call the office of your MP, they can often be a big help with these kinds of things.
Do you know if your birth was registered? Lots were not.
*@TrueNorth Thanks for the info. Yes my birth was registered and I used to keep my Registration of Birth Abroad in my wallet – but, alas, my wallet was stolen years ago.
*I’ve been following this blog for a few months. Congrats to all those who are finally free! I have an upcoming renunciation appt. in Calgary and just want this process to be over. Does Calgary handle the renunciation in just 1 meeting? Will I get some copies of my oath of renunciation at that time, for my records? Should I be expecting a smooth process there or a bit of intimidation?
*@newb
I relinquished in Toronto and it was a smooth, cordial process. I haven’t heard anything bad about Calgary and they are the only Canadian consulate that seems to be issuing CLNs in a reasonable time. If you go to the top of this thread and click on the blue highlighted “consulate visit report directory”, it will take you to a document that contains various stories about the consulate experiences of Brockers. There are quite a few Calgary stories. Good luck.
@ newb — Go to the top of this thread and click on the Consulate Report Directory link and you’ll get a pdf file which contains personal accounts of people who have relinquished or renounced. Generally it looks like people are having a fairly positive experience at the Calgary Consulate. I even believe the CLNs will be coming faster in the future (or I hope so anyway). Peg11 for instance just received her CLN after renouncing in the fall of 2011.
@ newb
Looks like iamquincy was faster on the draw but I have an excuse — trying to do this with a cat on my lap. 🙂
It seems that folks not caught up in a situation of dual nationality don’t understand the complexities when one of those nationalities is US. Most people think I am crazy for giving up my USC. My entire family is from Canada, on both sides, and they’ve been in Canada for a long time. I was born in the US shortly after my parents moved there and I only lived there as a kid. My family doesn’t agree with me about giving up my citizenshipp because they feel the US gov’t will ruin my life (essentially they say I should stay a citizen for fear of penalty of not being a citizen). My accountant says as far as the US gov’t is concerned, I will be considered a traitor if I renounce and the immigration lawyer I visited last year to understand the renunciation process used scare tactics to say I will never, ever be allowed to go visit the US after renouncing. I’ve debating renouncing ever since I turned 18 but 10+years of people saying that would not be a good idea has kept me from doing it. I finally decided that I’m not going to live a life in fear, especially since I have nothing to hide and I have 100% loyalty to my Canadian homeland, which has given me a lot to be thankful for. It seems I am renouncing for the same reasons most other Brockers are ex-pating for. Would anyone be willing to share or provide insight when they realised it was finally time to give Uncle Sam the boot… i.e., the straw that broke the camel’s back?
@ Newb, If I feared that a country would retaliate against me for relinquishing my citizenship, it would motivate me all the more to be free as quickly as possible.
@Newb I’m the old timer on the block, I got a CLN in 1976 after writing a very anti-American letter to Henry Kissinger on the occasion of the US bicentenniel, in which I mentioned that I’d become a Canadian citizen a few months previously and had thereby “renounced” (the word I used, never having read INA Section 349 a and never having heard of a CLN) my US citizenship. In my case there were several straws, mainly the Vietnam War and more specifically the August 1968 “Democratic” National Convention and Police Riot in Chicago which left me with the non-choice for President of Humphrey, Nixon and Wallace after campaigning and registering voters for Eugene McCarthy earlier that year and playing the US “democracy” game by the rules. Though my CLN says I expatriated by becoming a Canadian, not by renouncing, I’m reasonably sure the border patrol has me on their records as having a CLN since I’ve crossed the border multiple times on Canadian passport with US birthplace and have never been harassed though I’ve had some funny looks after the guard checked his computer. I’ve never been denied entry into the US and have gone back probably an average of once a year to visit family since 1978. So a lot of the threats and fears that were thrown at you are groundless, at least so far in my case. But when I came to Canada I didn’t believe I’d ever be able to go back without being arrested, due to my refusal to submit to the US draft, though Carter’s amnesty in 1977 cleared that away. Having made my peace with never seeing the US again, if it ever actually came to that today, I could live with it. I’d just tell my US relatives to visit me in Canada and spend their money here, instead of my always visiting them there, spending my money in their pathetic country, and putting up with being herded through their airport security like a sheep in a flock. No great loss to me in the long run, not my first choice but I can live with it if I have to.
Any country that treats people who don’t agree with them the way the US does, doesn’t deserve your loyalty, your allegiance, your tourist dollars, or anything else from you except disgust – and not fear, and certainly not respect, unless you’re someone who respects bullies.
@:newb. If I were you, I personally would hold off renouncing. As a Canadian citizen, CRA will not collect any FBAR penalties and will not collect any tax liability for IRS. So, you’re not vulnerable financially.
You were born a dual, so I would wait and see if there is anything to your benefit in current negotiations (which are taking far too long!).
What is your situation? Have you ever had a US passport, filed IRS returns, had a SSN or voted in a US election. If not, they don’t know about you.
The important thing is to not panic. Also, because you need to renounce, rather than relinquish, you must be compliant with IRS for five years. Are you? If not, if you do file, you will need to get a SSN. Doing that and filing returns is claiming your US citizenship. A bizarre situation.
Don’t put yourself on their radar. Or, as Schubert says: Don’t Wake The Sleeping Bear!
@newb The long answer: I have been in Canada over 40 years, most of the time I have thought of myself as 100% Canadian. I thought I had relinquished many years ago. I was told about a year ago I was a USC at the border. I didn’t think much about it, not a big deal, might have to pay for a US passport but so what, how much could as US passport cost? Sure glad I never asked for one of those! After returning from vacation I was in no rush to confirm my citizenship, I thought the border guard was wrong, but I really didn’t see it as the problem I now realize it is. A couple months later when I saw a newspaper article about USC and taxes is when I saw a big problem. I consulted an immigration lawyer, his entire business is helping people become US citizens, he had no clue that someone might not want to be a USC. I found better information on my own on the internet. Check the renunciation guide link at the bottom. It was after reading that site that I felt renouncing was not all that frightening. I studied the INA and confirmed that I had indeed committed an expatriating act as I had thought many years ago. I found out the difference between relinquish and renounce. When I had educated myself, I booked an appointment. It was a slow process over about two months to decide what to do, not a single straw.
Now the short answer: The IRS was the straw.
I agree with Blaze, as long as you don’t need to cross the US border. You presumably have a Canadian passport and not a US one, but alas your Canadian passport will show a US birthplace. Even though you never stayed in the US as an adult, you likely will get harassed at the border for not having a US passport and not having a CLN to explain why you don’t have a US passport, at least that seems to be the way the border is slowly heading. I know a lawyer who has clients who have crossed multiple times on Canadian passports like that, have been warned repeatedly, and still get through, but I’m not sure how much longer that’s going to be viable. Then there’s the FATCA mess, who knows how that will finally play out in Canada? But there is, as Blaze says, an argument for waiting and watching a while longer. Hard call to make, if your passport says you were born in the US. At minimum, maybe wait until we hear what the “final” FATCA rules are in US eyes and what our Canadian government is or is not going to tolerate from the US and our banks.
There may also be the option of getting a CLN to get clear of the banks in Canada, but then if/when IRS comes after you with the infamous form 8854 just ignoring it, or politely declining to submit it, if that is you have no intention or need to cross the border again. I don’t think anything in 8854 or other filing “requirements” for renunciants is enforceable in Canada under the tax treaty, but you’d best get some legal advice on that (or maybe contact CRA and ask them, there is I believe a free service they provide to Canadians who have questions about tax treaty issues, someone posted on that a few weeks ago here is the link
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/cmp/wh-eng.html
and before going into details with them if you contact them, get them to tell you what privacy protections you have in any conversations with them about your situation. Or go through a lawyer, if you can afford that.
Just a few tips. I have become very aware that one size never fits all in this situation, everyone’s situation and preferences are different, and ultimately you have to make your own decision after getting as much good advice as you can stand and need.
Good luck, we’re all here to sympathize and support.
Hello, newb.
Thanks for joining us at Isaac Brock. Yes, reports indicate that Calgary seems to be handling the renunciation in one meeting, $450 fee paid upfront of course. And CLN’s are being received. There haven’t been any adverse reports of experiences at the Calgary Consulate. (They have not let at least three of us renounce for our developmentally-delayed adult children, but I think that would be the case at any of them, not just here.)
Check at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/ for renunciations and relinquishments at various US Consulates and http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/ for personal experiences at different US Consulates. We’d love to add your information at both of these threads — to help others like yourself plan for their experience of same.
Welcome, congratulations and let us know how things are proceeding for you if you can. Best regards.
My opinion is to renounce first, talk to the IRS later. You can file taxes with an ITIN number rather than a SS number if you need/want to. Since form 8854 comes after you are no longer a citizen I don’t know how they think they have a right to it. If they really think the exit tax is justified they should have you fill in 8854 and pay your exit tax before they allow you to renounce.
@newb – the last straw for me was the FBARs where I had to share the financial details of my bank accounts joint with my spouse, children and charities/employers. Also, I strongly disliked the IRS calling me a tax cheat when that is completely untrue. (They referred to expats in general as tax cheats.)
I renounced in Calgary in one appointment – the Consul did have many reasons why I should not renounce but nothing that made me change my mind. About 7 months later I got notice that my CLN is ready — when I went in Nov 2011 I did not pay up front but I think they are collecting the $450US at the renunciation appointment now. If you look in that directory there are notes from me and others with tidbits of information about the renunciations in Calgary.
The more educated I became on this subject the more easily I could explain to people why I wanted to rid myself of the burden of US citizenship. Personally, I chose to file the 5 years of IRS tax returns and FBARs before my renunciation and then the 6th of each after the end of 2011. Good luck to you.
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I am unfortunately on the radar as I have filed US taxes every year. This was in no way an attempt to retain US citizenship, but more to follow the rules. My parents did it for me up until the last 2 years and they turned it over to me to do. A very expensive proposition given I never owe taxes. So I am compliant with all taxes, including the FBAR (I don’t have enough worth in my financial accounts since I am still in school so I am not yet required to submit that info, but I am sure soon enough that time will come). I had an old US passport that is quite expired but I never traveled on it. I have crossed the US border on my CDN passport (at least once a year as a tourist) and never been asked to present a US passport, yet that may change in time. I didn’t even know that I was technically required to travel to the US on on a US passport until recently. Knowing that now, it still seems weird to check into the US on a US passport and come back to Canada on a Canadian passport. Switching passports sounds like suspicious activity.
While the only financial cost of being a USC is the cost of a good accountant ($600 in Canada vs. a cheap $100 commercial accountant for resident USCs), I would like to start a family one day and the last thing I want to do is have kids wind up in a horrible situation where they have to pay taxes and swear allegience to a country they have no connection to. Furthermore, I would not want to drag a spouse into a financial mess. I just want to move on with my life. There really is no need to hold dual US/CDN citizenship. I can’t imagine that when I interview in Calgary, they will be able to make a convincing arguement how a US citizenship allows greater benefits than a Canadian citizenship. After all, there are 35 millions residents of Canada, most who are not USC, and they live just fine, if not better, than their US counterparts.
With my coming visit to the Calgary consulate, I never received any forms to fill out other than a questionnaire… I understant there are 3 or 4 forms I will need. Do they give me those ahead of time or at the time of the appointment? If I don’t receive them, this site has provided me with the info to find the correct ones and I will fill them out ahead of time.
*I was told I would be given the forms at the consulate. I didn’t want to fill them out there so I downloaded them, filled them out at home and brought them with me. They read them over and said they were well answered and then I signed them in front of the vice consul. They did give me a couple things to sign as well but nothing where I had to think hard about the answers.
@newb
I’m in a similar situation to you – I just started working this year straight out of graduate school and some internships, and my main thinking is that keeping US citizenship isn’t costing me much financially at the moment, but that it will quickly become a huge problem in the next few years, especially with regards to my ability to keep my bank accounts open (I live in Europe and many banks are refusing US clients now) and not have to drag in any future spouse or kids into this mess. I am perfectly happy being an EU-only person, much as you are perfectly happy being just Canadian I imagine!
Anyway, I have no idea how it works in Canada, but at the consulate near me they gave me the 3 forms at the first appointment and asked me to send back the oath and the CLN before my second one and to bring along the questionnaire. Every consulate seems to operate differently, with the main rule now being that all want you to pay the $450 upfront at the meeting and not afterwards like before.
My 2nd appointment is at the end of this week 🙂
This is off in the future for us but I would like to know what the names of the consulate forms are and where to download them from. Hopefully by the time my husband gets to that stage they won’t be even more onerous and I’ll at least have a comparison on file. Thanks for asking the question newb. You are really thinking ahead and I know all will go well at the consulate for you. Best of wishes!
@Em, when your husband relinquishes, he’ll need the forms mentioned in this post:
My April 7 visit to the US consulate
@Em,
You can get them all here http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/forms/c21447.htm
The three which are needed are 4079 (relinquishment)
4080 (renunciation) and 4081.
My consulate only had me return the following:
“Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States”
“Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States”
“Information for Determining Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship”
Is this identical to what people in Canada are being asked to fill out?