If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@Newb
If you’re referring to the stamp date in the upper right-hand corner, “Approved (Date) Overseas Citizens Services, Department of State, CA/OCS/ACS/WHA,” that’s done in Washington and will always be dated later than the renunciation date.
The operative date is the one a few lines from the bottom: “That she thereby expatriated herself on (Date) under the provisions of section …”
There’s also a date at the very bottom, when the consular official signed the CLN. That would be on or after the date of your renunciation, but before the date of the date stamp at the top.
*@pacifica777
That’s a huge relief. It looks like I’m good to go, and since I’m already gone, even better!
@All
What’s the preferred way to post a consular report here?
@Newb, the incorrect date on your cover letter and cancelled passport are security features. The fact that they have mistakes on them confirms their authenticity as US govt issued documents 🙂
@Watcher,
LOL.
@Newb,
You can just post your report as a comment here on the thread. I’ll leave it here and copy it into the Directory. Thanks!
My Calgary Consulate renunciation experiences…
My situation:
I am a dual citizen by birth (Canada and U.S.) with a U.S. birthplace. I am a younger person and I have resided in Canada and my family’s home province for the last 10 years. I always travel on a Canadian passport and I have not been overly-scrutinized at the U.S. border about my birthplace. I have never been given any trouble at air crossings (i.e., I was treated as a normal Canadian) but 1 land crossing from Windsor to Detroit in the early days of the 2003 Iraq war saw a few extra questions…”Why are you posing as a Canadian?” and “Where is your American passport?”. I was not advised to obtain a U.S. passport during that interrogation. That was almost 10 years ago and I crossed many more times at the very same land crossing (and 3 others), without any more questioning than a typical Canadian would expect (e.g., “Where are you going?”, “How long will you be there?”, “Any alcohol or tobacco?”, etc.). I am not fully established in my career yet, but I know that my profession will put my future earnings into jeopardy if I want to remain compliant with the IRS. I am compliant with my current and past tax obligations, to my knowledge. I am engaged to a Canadian and plan to continue my life in Canada with her and one day, hopefully, raise our children here. Most importantly, I felt Canadian, was raised by Canadians, have only Canadian family, and know in my heart, Canada is my home.
My 1st contact (late May 2012):
I struggled to get ahold of the Calgary consulate… their webpage doesn’t have a link for renunciations. I phoned a few times only to get automated prompts. The list of options in the prompts was not why I was phoning, so I finally hit the U.S. Visa prompt and got transferred. I explained why I was phoning and they put me in contact with the right people. They handled my situation very respectfully. They asked some basics: my name, birthdate, SSN, my other citizenship, how I obtained my Canadian citizenship, and my email address. Within a day, I received an email from them, acknowledging my call. They also sent me some state department info about renouncing and a questionnaire (looked like a word document). I filled it out and sent it back right away. Within 2 days, they emailed me to determine what day I would like to renounce. I said at their next available appointment. I received a date within the next business day for late July. I happily accepted. My advice: be completely flexible in scheduling the date. Take the next available appointment. Your renunciation is a priority and worth missing an afternoon of work.
My 1st, and only consular visit (late July 2012):
I arrived at my appointment early. I checked into the main desk at the building (across from the library). I thought it was a general security desk, but it a U.S. security desk. I was told to stand next to a wall and look into a surveillance camera. I did. They were running a bit late so I stood in front of the camera and against the wall for quite some time, maybe 20 minutes. I felt watched. They came to get me about 10 minutes later than my scheduled appointment. The security guard escorted me and another older gentleman upstairs. Security wasn’t a big issue, except for my car key fob. They said I shouldn’t have it on me. He said “You know I could forbid you from entering?”. I said I knew that and I would hope he could understand I was travelling alone and had nowhere else to store the key. He eventually said I could leave it with him. After that, I was escorted into a big room with lots of chairs and a number of wickets for talking to staff. I waited in my chair for a while and tried to talk to the older gentleman, seeing as we were the only 2 people in a room with 60 empty chairs. He said he was renouncing as well but I didn’t pursue it any further. They must have an official time they do renunciations (I think 2 pm on Wednesdays and Thursdays). They don’t want anyone else around to witness it I guess.I was called up first to provide documentation (US passport, which was very expired, Canadian passport, and to verify my questionnaire). After they told me to sit down. About 5 minutes later, I paid my $450. The visa machine on their end was down so I was worried I wouldn’t be able to pay for my desired renunciation that day. They finally got it working. My advice would be to take cash so there is no problems cashing out of the U.S. system. I sat down again after paying and they started to process the other guy and make him pay his fees. I then got a call to talk to a Vice-Consul. He didn’t say much, just asked if I understood what I was doing and that if I ever wanted to live/work in the U.S., I would have to apply for a visa. I was told to travel to the U.S. on my Canadian passport going forward. I raised my hand to swear out and signed my CLN. He said it would take up to 6 months to process, but if I didn’t have it by late January 2013, to contact the Calgary consulate again. Overall, everyone knew their roles and it was painless. I left the consulate with the security guard and was on my way. First thing I did when I got out… I drove to get a milkshake at a Calgary mainstay and celebrate my freedom on a wonderful summer day in Calgary.
Early December 2012:
I received my CLN… had to go to the post office to pick it up and sign for it. I realised that they put the date of my renunciation on the CLN so that was good. There was a raised seal on the CLN as well. In the official use only box in the top right corner, it was stamped for October 2012. That must have been the day it crossed someone’s desk for the final sign-off. They included some of my supporting documents and my cancelled passport. The cancelled passport and the cover letter that accompanied everything was dated with an effective expatriation date of June 2012. A clerical error I am sure since that would imply I lost my citizenship a month before I renounced. I’ll take the July date noted on my CLN as the official date for tax purposes.
Summary:
1st Contact: late May 2012
Received pre-appointment documents and scheduled appointment: within several days of 1st contact
1st and only Consular visit in Calgary: late July 2012
Received CLN: early December 2012
The hardest part of the process is making the decision to renounce. Once you make it, leaving the U.S. system (at least the non-tax part), is rather easy, but takes some patience. Now that I received my CLN, I feel better knowing that it is finally over, and there wasn’t some sort of major clerical mishap where I am still a citizen and have to start the process all over again. I don’t feel much different than I did when I was dual. I guess all that means is that as far as I am concerned, I haven’t been a U.S. citizen in a very long time. I hope my story helps inform others! Best of luck to everyone renouncing.
Hi Newb,
Thanks very much for your report! All the start-to-finish details will be a big help to others. I’ll add it to the directory tomorrow evening.
@ Newb
“I drove to get a milkshake at a Calgary mainstay and celebrate my freedom on a wonderful summer day in Calgary.” — That kind of sounds like Peter’s Drive-In. 🙂 Thanks for your detailed account. I’m saving that for my husband. I’ll be right outside for him when the time comes so I can hold his car keys.
@Em, @Newb,
My thought too — had to be Peter’s Drive-In.
Thanks for your description of the Calgary experience, newb. That will help others coming behind you. (It was weird standing in front of that camera!)
@ All
*Peter’s Drive-In was indeed my first stop. Awesome Oreo shakes 😉
Would like to know if anyone has had any recent experience with the Halifax Consulate.
I dropped my relinquishment paperwork off in late November (in person) and found the staff to be very helpful and accommodating…they advised me that they would process said paperwork then get in touch with me for an appointment.
It has been over a week now and still no phone call….
I went through the IBS consulate directory and found one individual who received a call 8 days later and had an appointment the next day….(in Halifax), so I was kind of hoping the same treatment would happen in my case.
To say the least my anxiety level is quite high as a relinquishment in December would most definietley streamline my final tax filing for 2013 as opposed to waiting until 2014 if my reliquishment is pushed into next year.
*Web sites like this one and the Renunciation Guide provided invaluable help to us this year in making our decision to renounce and coping with the process of doing so. In return I should share information about this experience which might perhaps prove of help to others.
The Essentials:
Consulate – Melbourne, Australia
First Contact – start of July 2012
First Appointment – 3rd week of August 2012
Second Appointment – 3rd week of September 2012
CLNs Arrived – last week of November 2012
Our Story:
Quite a few years ago we emigrated from the US to Australia. We’re a same-sex couple (of the bear flavour). We’ve been Australian citizens for many years. For each of the many years that we’ve lived in this country, we had carefully (if grudgingly) filed our US tax returns as required. Increasingly intrusive requirements became an absolute put-off. With alarm we watched the US dollar drop from two Australian dollars in value to less than one. Finally this year we decided to take action; finding accurate and first-hand information proved the difficulty. We haven’t any ties at all with the US, haven’t set foot there even as visitors in over a dozen years now. If rellies fancy seeing us they can hop across the pond on their own dollar; we’re not going back there, ever. Not that we could really afford such travel anyway, though if we could we’d be visiting mates in the UK and Europe instead. Thank you Brockers for all the wonderful and helpful information you had provided, much appreciated by us here Down Under!
After thoroughly studying the Renunciation Guide we decided to take the plunge. It started with an email to the American Citizen Services division at our consulate. They responded with an email giving us some information and asking us to respond to eight questions about ourselves; we would be contacted shortly according to the note. Well we did, and they didn’t. It took a number of follow-up emails and patient phone calls before I succeeded at getting our first appointment booked. It was frustrating that we had to wait until late the following month for our appointment to come up. Yet we’\re very fortunate to have a consulate conveniently present in our city, just an hour’s journey by tram from our home.
The US consulate here is hidden in a nondescript office tower on St Kilda Road, a lovely broad boulevard south of the CBD. Our appointment was on a Friday, a day on which the consulate is closed to the general public. We arrived there to find a huge empty lobby with nobody whatsoever in sight, no receptionist, nothing. Rather confusing. At the farthest end we found an unmarked wooden door with a small window in it, near some lifts. After waiting there a minute someone opened it and admitted us to the security centre. Security was utterly over the top, it made us chuckle a bit since Melbourne is as friendly and civilised a city as anyone could ever ask for, yet here we were facing the sort of procedures one might expect to find in locales such as Kabul or Baghdad. Go figure. Meanwhile the staffers there were local Aussies, warm and friendly, who quickly melted any unease we might otherwise have felt. We were the first appointment there that Friday morning. After twenty minutes or so with security we were accompanied up a lift into the consular offices themselves.
There we were directed to a waiting area in the American Citizen Services section. A large empty windowless room with many chairs; a bit odd being there ourselves alone. We were quite thirsty and needed a loo. Unfortunately there were no toilets, no vending machines, no water not even a bubbler. No magazines or such to read. We felt a tad nervous. Sitting there waiting for a long time was as boring as watching a really bad cricket game. Finally a voice directed us to attend at a counter where we interacted through thick glass windows. When we’d rung them we were told we could have our appointment at the same time together but would have to be interviewed separately. Instead we were interviewed together as it turned out. The meeting was fairly brief and professional. We were asked whether we understood the consequences of what we were doing and whether this action was being performed voluntarily. Along with the other documents proving US and Oz citizenship, we had brought along our own copies of the forms that would be required, though hadn’t been asked to do so. The consulate would not accept these. Instead we were given identical versions they had printed off themselves, asked to complete those and post them back, after which we’d be contacted about our second, final appointments. I asked whether we could fill these out there at the consulate then simply hand them in, but the reply was no. There was one additional form they gave us which was quite unexpected. This was form SS-5-FS, the Social Security Administration Application for a Social Security Card form. We were told it was mandatory to complete this as well, and the second appointments would not be booked unless this was received. I didn’t quite like this as it gave them our social security numbers. But we said nothing; why complain since we had nothing whatsoever to hide anyway. What I most disliked was that we were given no proof whatsoever that we had attended this appointment that day. At least we had been treated in a civil and courteous fashion throughout.
That afternoon we filled out our paperwork straightaway. I posted it back to the consulate later that arvo in guaranteed Overnight Express Delivery mailers I picked up at the post office. A few days later we were contacted again with a booking for our second appointments, to be held just four weeks after our first appointment had been attended.
The second appointment seemed less an adventure than the first one was, being as we knew largely what to expect. From what we’ve experienced, Americans seem quite few and thinly spread in our country; those who aren’t of the tourist persuasion fit in rather invisibly as well. Nothing ever appears in our press about FBARs or FATCA, and it’s possible that many Americans here have no idea they are even required to file taxes. We’re only informed of such things ourselves due to a lot of experience researching things on the Internet, being IT professionals. Our second meeting was again civil and professional. We were processed by the Vice Consul herself. It’d been some while since last we’d encountered another American here. She was polite and somewhat friendly, though her accent was just a tad grating (our city is pronounced “Mel-bin”, not “Mel-borrrrrrne” for goodness sake!). We were directed to a cashier to pay our fees. We’d been told these fees had to be paid in Australian dollars cash only, and on a one-to-one exchange rate with the US dollar despite the fact our Aussie dollar is worth a good few cents more. After that we were to hand over both the consulate and the customer copies of the receipts we’d been given, before we underwent the final stage of the processing. We signed just two copies of all our paperwork after carefully checking it. I’m glad I was observant that morning since they had mis-typed my birth date and had to print off new copies of one of the pages due to that correction. My partner and I raised our right arms and swore the oath of renunciation in unison before the Vice Consul then. Again to our dismay we were not given one shred of evidence we had been to the consulate and performed any of these actions. Our paperwork, we were told, would only be sent to us once the case was approved and the CLNs got posted. We had to provide them pre-paid self-addressed registered mailers for this too, at our own expense; a bit stingy that, given what we’d shelled out in fees. At the last second I asked for our customer copies of the receipts for the fees we’d paid, insisting it was only fair to be given a receipt after handing over a sum of money. With some seeming hesitation, our request was granted; at least these receipts had printed on them our names and the date and the fact these were for payment of citizen renunciation fees, the only proof we got in hand of having done this. Later on when I read on this site that our Canadian counterparts were also being treated in such a fashion, it was a small bit of solace; I’d initially hoped to leave there bearing copies of the papers we had signed that day. We were told that our CLN papers should arrive in around one month.
On leaving the consulate building we felt elated to have completed this bothersome process. We caught a tram back into the city centre and to celebrate treated ourselves to a bonzer brekkie at an outdoor cafe on De Graves Street, one of Melbourne’s famous laneways. From here onward all should be right. Our humble net worth is only the merest fraction of the threshold for the dreadful exit tax, while our tax filings for the past several decades were undoubtedly in order. Now came the wait for State Department approval and the arrival of the precious CLN papers to follow.
It was certainly longer than one month that we waited. Cup Day came and went, but still nothing had arrived. On this web site I read about the agonising long wait some of our Canadian counterparts were undergoing, thus reckoned we’d just have to remain patient about it. Finally nine full weeks after our final consulate appointment, our postie showed up with the registered mailers we had provided. Jolly good cause for celebration, that. As well as the CLNs the mailers also contained copies of all the paperwork we’d signed, copies of the documents we’d submitted, and oddly they’d punched four holes in our mouldy old US passports (which had expired aeons ago and never been renewed since) as well as stamping “cancelled” in those despite the fact they obviously weren’t valid any longer to begin with.
Made for a brilliant prelude to our holiday season. We’ve been true blue Aussies for a large chunk of our lives, haven’t felt American in any way nor felt any ties to that far-away country. Which made this decision a relatively simple one. At the time we emigrated we had actually seriously considered Canada instead. That’s a country we utterly adored on our many visits there. Yet we were very nervous about its proximity to the US and wanted a clean break with our former homeland. Also we had many more friends in Australia than in Canada, being at a point in our lives when we’d been traveling extensively around the world. I wish all of you Canadian-Americans who are undergoing the process that we’ve just undergone, the very best of luck with your situation and hope you’ll achieve the outcome you desire. Cheers and thank you again for the wonderful information that’s been shared on this web site.
Congratulations @Borneman and partner. Glad you found IBS helpful – helps to know that we’re not just talking to ourselves, and that there are readers who benefit from the efforts here. Hope you’ll pass it on to others, and consider using the information here to also try and push back on FATCA in Australia.
Congratulations, C Borneman and Partner! Really glad to know that Brock was of help to you. Thanks for sharing your report, great details in there which will be of help to others. I’ll add it to the Directory tomorrow.
Off topic. Melbourne, you lucky stiffs … what a beautiful city and I love trams (also vegemite)!
*Hello Pacifica 777
towards the end of November I posted that I had received my CLN from the Marseille Consulate and that the process took 2 1/2 months from start to finish. You wrote that you would update this on my directory report but I think you forgot to do so. May be helpful for others.
Kind Regards
Dunja
@C Borneman and Your Partner,
I have just added Melbourne, Australia to our Relinquish & Renounce database — in one fell swoop. Thanks so much for your detailed description of what your experience was Down Under. So glad that you found this site and that it was helpful to you. And, thanks for your support of so many of us just next door to the US. We all are stronger going through this with each other’s support. Your report for an Australian renunciation (as there are at least a couple of differences from, say, the Canadian consulates) will help others considering the same there. (We can ask again, why don’t all renunciations and relinquishments at all US consulates throughout the world follow the same procedure? It should be a similar experience for us all.)
My and our congratulations!!
Perhaps this has been mentioned elswhere already, but I just noticed that Form 8854 for 2012 has been released.
Hi Dunja,
Thanks for catching that! Done.
*@notamused
Both the 8854 form and directions are for 2012 as you note. Thanks.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf (Form)
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf (Instructions)
Hmm, no, what I’ve downloaded is for 2012.
*@notamused Thanks for informing us, I’ve downloaded the 2012 8854 too. The link you’ve provided mapped to an 8854 for 2011, but (I hope) this link will take you directly to the 2012 8854: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f8854–2012.pdf
… and this one to the 2012 Form 8854 directions: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i8854–2012.pdf.
As Phil Robertson from Duck Dynasty would say….HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!
Just got back from my appointment with the U.S. consulate in Halifax NS (Dec.12). for my US citizenship relinquishment.
My background…born in the US moved to Canada with family as a child, never worked or lived in the US except did apply and use a US Passport for travel (as I was a landed immigrant/permanent resident of Canada at that time).
Found out about tax and FBAR obligations in the US and filed back to 2005 with no bumps in the road.
Applied for Canadian citizenship at same time, which was finally granted November 29th 2012.
Following the Citizenship ceremony on Nov 29th, I immediately dropped my paperwork off (DS4079, DS4081, plus supporting documents) to the Consulate and was told I would be contacted for an appointment. (I really wanted an appointment in December so that my final tax filing could occur in 2013, as opposed to being pushed to 2014 if my appointment was delayed into the new year).
My direction in this case was always to relinquish, not renounce my citizenship as I had just performed a voluntary act of expatriation by pledging allegiance to another Country (Canada) as per section 349(a) item 1 and 2 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
On December 10th I received an phone call/email asking if I could attend an appointment on Dec 12th (today).
Arrived early at 9:45am, went through the normal security screening (no electronic devices or cell phones allowed…so leave them home).
Sat in a small room with teller type windows behind and to the right.
Was called to a ‘window’ where I surrendered the original documents to support my (already) sent copies. I also had some questions which she kindly answered…I also wanted to include a ‘letter” to my file outlining my relinquishment notification and therefore included an amended DS4081.
After 5 minutes I was summoned to the window again and asked if I had filed tax returns in the United States. My reply was ‘yes’ and that I performed this back filing procedure to year 2005 as per the Dec IRS fact sheet.
My initial thoughts were if they were trying to determine whether or not I was a ‘covered expat’, but then she advised that I could not ‘relinquish’ my US citizenship but would rather have to renounce because, by filing tax returns, I have acted in accordance with being a ‘US citizen’ and a relinquishment would be technically not available to me.
I was a bit shocked by this as, if you read my DS4079 I had tabulated on this form over and over again in nauseating repetition “by attaining grant of Canadian citizenship on November 29th of 2012, I was, and am fully aware of my voluntary act of performing items 1 and 2 of Section 349(a)of the Immigration and Nationality Act”. Not to mention my letter of inclusion to the Consulate outlining my act of expatriation of the same date (November 29th 2012)
I calmly pointed out that, although I was a US citizen at the time of these filings, I have not filed a US tax return since my grant of Canadian citizenship dated November 29th 2012…less than 2 weeks ago and should therefore be able to relinquish as per item 1 and 2 of section 349(a).
After a quick review of the paperwork, she agreed and I was told to sit back down and that I would be called back to the window in a moment.
After 5 minutes I was summoned to another window at the back of the Consulate. Another individual passed me my Canadian documents (originals) and advised me where to sign the DS-4079 and DS-4081. (Although I had filled out the DS-4080 (at there request when they sent me all the documents early in November) it was not signed, nor would they return this form to me. I was not concerned as I was not asked to sign it so i assumed they had already discarded it.
He then handed me a receipt and told me ‘it looks like you have already paid’. As the receipt was all ‘zero’s’, and I never gave them (or was asked for) a credit card or otherwise I questioned him on this…but then he advised there is no charge for relinquishments, just renouncements…so to this point I am not sure what the receipt was for.
He advised that they would keep the US passport and sent it to Washington, at which time the CLN would be approved and mailed back to me with the same (cancelled) passport, which should not take too long as they are being processed a lot faster these days.
I asked him if he required me to surrender my SSN card…and he advised it was not necessary or required…just the Passport.
Overall the staff at this appointment was highly professional, and pleasant to deal with.
Anyway, after 2 minutes, all forms (2) were signed, my original documents (less US passport were in hand and I was on my way back to the car!
Mach73, I am so happy! I knew you wanted to get it all wrapped up before the end of the year. Really glad you didn’t have to go all the way to Montréal or have it drag on.
That was a weird one about the tax filing, good thing you knew the score when they brought that up. Of course filing tax returns while one is still a USC does not prevent a person from filing based on relinquishment — that doesn’t even make sense. Argh! [Even filing after relinquishing but before applying for the CLN does not automatically invalidate a relinquishment (eg if filed solely to wrap things up with IRS, not to assert citizenship)]
Except for that glitch (fortunately straightened out), it sounds like a very good experience!
Overall From what I’ve heard overall Halifax sounds quite pleasant and efficient to deal with.
Thanks for your report and I’ll add it to the directory.
Congratulations — bet you’ll have a very merry Christmas!
@mach 73,
CONGRATULATIONS on your RELINQUISHMENT in Halifax. The description of your experience there is Exhibit #1 of why it is so important to be aware of the differences between relinquishment and renunciation. You absolutely knew better than the Halifax official and steered your appointment in the right / appropriate direction, relinquishment. Good for you, smart person!!!
Thanks for reporting here, mach73. If those preparing for their own relinquishment appoitments will read and re-read your experience, it will so much better prepare them for whatever they may be told — and correct it if told to renounce instead of relinquish.
Bravo, mach73!
Excellent point, Calgary! Not every consular official is aware of the details of relinquishment (and some other very important points of law, too), even though they should be. This consular official was acting in good faith, open-minded about facts and law (not on some vendetta against expatriation), so it was straightened out quickly. But it goes to show, that we all, no matter what consulate we go to (Halifax, in fact, has an excellent reputation), have to do our research for our expatriation matters and be prepared. Good job, Mach73!