929 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 1 of 2”

1. Congratulations Dave! That is very good news. I’m glad your experience at the Calgary Consulate was positive because that will be where my husband will be going … eventually. And nobledreamer, here’s hoping that your CLN is on its way too and the same goes for everyone else who is waiting.

2. @Dave Bahnmiller

   Congratulations. So some consulates in Canada work faster than 1 year (like Petros had to wait in Toronto).

   Was anything mentioned to you at the consulate regarding filing tax returns? I hope not as with a relinquishment dating back to 1968, I think it would be absurd to require tax filing.

3. @ Dave,  It is very gratifying to me to see that the Isaac Brock Society has been a resource for you and has helped you to achieve the best results possible.  Thanks for letting us know.

4. @Dave Bahnmiller, Congratulations! I’m very happy for you. That must be such a load off of your mind!  Now you can live your life without worrying about all of the FATCA mess. And it’s good news for everyone else here who became Canadian decades ago.

5. *Congratulations, Dave!  Great news!  Thanks for sharing!

   As you’re aware, so far the CLNs have been arriving much quicker (4-8 weeks) to other countries than to Canada (1 year).  Then, just last month, Toronto told me that I might be getting my CLN is as soon as 2 to 3 months as Washington was working to speed up the backlog in processing the Canadian applications. 

   Your report is great news.  The sooner you get the CLN, the sooner your life is in order, what a relief for the individual – and it’s reassuring to all awaiting their CLNs or applying in the near future.  It also bolsters my belief that DOS is a sensible department that acts in good faith (The news of Congress and IRS policies re “US persons abroad” is so outrageous and shows so much bad faith that I tend to need all the positive news I can get to keep from thinking that their entire government has gone completely beserk.)

   Re the consulate official emphasising the downside of  losing US citizenship.  Not relevant, of course, to a relinquishment.  My guess is this person just wanted to err on the side of caution as they have a duty to do emphasise the downside with renunciation cases and/or they may be a *very* enthusiastic American (not a bad trait, obviously, in a govt employee, as long as they accept that being American is not for everyone, as this person obviously does.) 

    I think you handled it just right.  We should stick up for our rights (like deviation from the law itself or an attempt to obstruct or harass).  But with minor procedural deviances like this, I think it’s generally best the way you handled it.  Things go quicker and everyone’s happy.

    May I put your post in the Consulate Report Directory as is? Or do you want just your first name or do you want anything taken out?  You could let me know by making a comment here or e-mail me at pacifica.isaacbrocksosciety@gmail.com.

6. @Dave,

   Thanks for letting us know your story and process for relinquishment at the Calgary Consulate, the first in Calgary reported to Isaac Brock. It is such encouraging news that you have now received your CLN. May I put your information, anonymously, into our database?

   Your relinquishment, like so many others, should be a “slam dunk”. Hopefully, we will be seeing more acceptance / acknowledgement of relinquishments by the Department of State!

   Thank you, personally, from me and others who will be accessing the US Consulate in Calgary for our relinquishments or renunciations that it was a positive experience there for you. Your additional report of the experience in Calgary lessens my anxiety for the appointment I hope to have there one day soon.

   We appreciate your good words about Isaac Brock. This site has helped me, you and so many others, some who are still lurking I’m sure. Your reporting your experience is one more that helps many others. All the best to you, Dave!

7. *@pacifica777 @Calgary411 Sure, add my post to the Consulate Report Directory / database, as is.  No need to remove my last name.  I feel a bit guilty about being able to use my full name here; if I’d been contributing to the site all along I would have come up with a pseudonym, but I didn’t need one because I’ve just been lurking.  Apologies for not contributing earlier, but every time I came across a new bit of information that seemed worth sharing, I’d come here and see that it had already been posted, with several comments.  So anything I would have said up to now would have been along the lines of “me, too” and “I agree”, and who needs that?   By waiting until I’ve become home free I can use my real name, which underscores how bizarre it is that all of you honest, decent, law-abiding folks posting on this site have to conceal yours.

   Here’s a bit more information about my Calgary consular visit that you can add if you wish (forgot to include it in my original posting, perhaps because I was still celebrating and toasting my good fortune):

   When the question of why I wanted to relinquish came up, I emphasized that my motive was to avoid problems at the border.  I said that the last time I crossed I was told that since my Canadian passport indicated that I had a U.S. birthplace, I should actually be travelling with a U.S. passport.  I said to the consular official that I was hoping to get some kind of document (at that point I didn’t know enough to call it a Certificate of Loss of Nationality) to verify that I wasn’t actually an American.  That was true – of course it’s also true that I didn’t want to have to deal with IRS filing or FATCA issues, but I said nothing about that.  I’d advise anyone relinquishing to keep in mind that you’re at the consulate to address nationality and State Department matters, not IRS issues – it would be a Bad Idea to make any reference to citizenship-based taxation or to mention that you’re hoping to avoid tax compliance problems.  I’m sure this is pretty obvious to everyone on the Isaac Brock site, and it’s kind of presumptuous of me to be passing out advice since I’m one of the most naïve minnows you’ll ever meet.  But if you’re like me you get nervous in some situations, and when we’re nervous we tend to blurt things out that we later regret.  Based on my experience the best approach going in is to plan to say as little as possible, to volunteer nothing you don’t have to, and to be as Canadian as possible under the circumstances.  You’re better off sounding like a naïve bumpkin than someone who is well-versed in all aspects of the law – hey, it worked for me.

8. @Dave

   ‘You’re better off sounding like a naive bumpkin than someone who is well-versed in all aspects of the law’. I love it. And I get what you mean – when I get nervous, I tend to blurt things out and then regret it later. One of my sons suggested that when/if I go to the consulate, he should come with me. Two reasons – he could kick me if I started to say something that I shouldn’t say and, he can TRY to assist in the ‘holding of my temper’.

9. Dave, your policy of saying as little as possible, volunteering nothing and to be as Canadian as possible under the circumstances is excellent advice and a great contribution — definitely not bumpkinish. Some of us, including me, are bumpkinish and that’s OK (oh, the mistakes I’ve made that I wouldn’t have had I been here first!). I have learned more than been able to impart anything new and I, too, can often just agree (as I’m doing with the advice you just gave). I want to somehow protect some of those other bumpkins out there who haven come across any of the knowledge we’ve gained here.

   Thanks again for your participation, now and future.

   PS — You will be referred to as #8 for Calgary (but the first Calgary relinquishment — big Congratulations on that again and getting that CLN!) on the public Renouce and Relinquish database (but we have your name on another page that doesn’t get published). Yours is the kind of information we hope to add more of.

10. @Dave,

    One question — for the database and my curiosity, what is the date of your CLN?  I hope it was backdated to 1968.

11. *@calgary411 — yup, it shows that I was expatriated effective 11-07-1968 “under the provisions of INA 349 (a) (1)” because of the oath I swore on that date.  Also @tiger — just realized I forgot to answer your question about tax returns.  Nope, nothing was said about filing or reporting, which makes sense since the expatriation date was decades ago.  

    BTW, even though I’m free and clear now I’m going to keep following the discussions here on Isaac Brock, partly because it’s fascinating and partly because it’s such a great community.  I hope to have a chance to help out in some capacity, or at least to express sympathy and support, because I know that there are  many good people here in a bad position. Also, I’m looking ahead to the time when my Canadian financial institutions ask me — as they’ll have to ask all of their customers — whether or not I’m a “U. S. person”.  My inclination is to formally refuse to answer, because I believe that citizenship-based
    taxation is wrong, and forcing other countries to enforce it is wrong, and the
    U.S. government should back the hell off.

12. @Dave,

    That’s the answer we were hoping for! Thanks for that and continuing to follow and be part of the discussions. Whether you realize it or not, you’ve added a great deal so far. And, you have the belief and spirit needed here — citizenship taxation needs to be changed for the good of the US and its citizens and “supposed citizens” abroad.

13. Congratulations, Dave.  It gives me great hope as my wife and I had our relinquishment visit in late January as well.  Maybe the dam will break now – or at least show a few cracks.

14. *Just wondering if anyone has relinquished because they worked for the Canadian goverment and made an oath?

15. @ Dave “BTW, even though I’m free and clear now I’m going to keep following the discussions here on Isaac Brock … I hope to have a chance to help out in some capacity, or at least to express sympathy and support, because I know that there are  many good people here in a bad position.”

    Aboslutely!  And thanks for helping out by sharing your consulate report!  In the best of times, people might be a tad nervous about going to a consulate (any country’s) to renounce/relinquish, it being such an unfamiliar thing.  And with the current US mood today towards USCs and former USCs abroad, some people, whose nerves are already frayed by being caught in this mess, are really fearful of going. 

    Reading accounts such as yours really helps to put people’s minds at ease!  And when people read actual accounts, they know what the procedure is, reassuring and useful for any new strange experience.  And knowledge of the actual procedure makes for a “wise consumer” so-to-speak, so that in the (fortunately very rare) event that a consular employee does something seriously out of line, the renunciant/relinquisher will know it’s out of line and can get things back on proper track.

16. Dianne –

    Yes.  See this:

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/04/24/relinquishment-report-from-hong-kong/

17. Congratulations Dave!  Didn’t see your post until now or I’d have chimed in earlier.  This is excellent news, though I’m really baffled why it’s six months from Calgary and possibly double that from Toronto.  But at least it does get processed, and it does get dated correctly!

18. You Canadians sure are lucky.

    I renounced in Europe and I did not – AT ALL – receive the same treatment as you.  

    First, I was in the embassy months before, for another administrative reason, and I witnessed a renunciation, broadcast over the loudspeaker in front of the whole waiting room filled with good people there to renew passports or get visas etc…  I was shocked at the brutal interrogation given to the poor person, the aggressive questioning and the attempts to make them mention anything to do with filing or taxes.

    Good thing I had this experience under my belt, since I was not expecting to be treated fairly or even decently when I went in for my interview.  I got the same person I had seen before.

    In my country it was 2 visits, and I had no problem obtaining the visits and did not have to wait.

    Indeed I was in for a rough questioning.  I was greeted with the statement “why do YOU (as in , YOU of all people? ) want to renounce?  It doesn’t COST you anything!!”  The only sense I can make out of this statement is, he had investigated my (boring and modest) tax history and so he knew I had never owed US taxes despite filing a lengthy report every year…    I was convinced by his tone of voice that he had investigated me, as you must sign up weeks before the first interview.  

    From there forward I was interrogated and every justification I gave he wanted examples, which I did not provide.  I do not want to be discriminated against, I said.  “Have you been discriminated against?  How?  Give me examples?”  I want to be treated like other Europeans, I said “Are you not, then?  In what way?”  I said the State Department materials advise against dual nationalities as it can cause problems “Have YOU had any problems?  What problems have you had?”  and on it went until after about 4 minutes he signed off on the paper he was writing furious notes on, which he did not show me and I could not see what was written.

    On my 2nd interview I had requested at the outset to obtain copies of my signed and stamped declarations, and he had said “we’ll see what we can do”.  

    At the end of the process after I handed over all the papers and my passport, he said, “You are no longer American, good bye”. I started panicking, and said, “I have just signed some very important statements I would please like to have a copy”.  Sorry, was the answer, that’s not possible, the procedure is that you will get your CLN in the mail.  I can’t help you.  You are no longer American, good bye.

    Absolutely gutted, panicked and shaking I left the embassy and started sobbing as soon as I hit the sidewalk outside.

    The good news is, I got my CLN just 3 weeks later; it was in fact approved just 5 working days after my visit.

    I’m sorry I can’t give exact dates or country out of fear as I don’t wish to be identified.

19. @freeatlast

    That’s outrageous, and worthy of a formal complaint to someone. They publicly broadcast renunciations to the assembled crowd? Are the officials at this consulate former Stasi or KGB employees?

    On the other hand — they processed it quickly. All you have to do now is put the unpleasant memory behind you. And if nothing else, it drives home the fact that you made the right decision.

    *

20. @freeatlast,

    Thanks for reporting the despicable, abusive treatment you received at the Consulate you did business with. It is good that you received your CLN so quickly. I presume this was a renunciation rather than relinquishment as you handed over your passport, which would have negated your right for a relinquishment.

    Thanks for joining us — we’re glad that you are ‘free at last’. Congratulations on persevering for yourself!

21. Just to clarify, when I say broadcast, the way it happens is they have line of tellers windows like in a bank (ha ha!) or post office.  The consular employees comments are amplified by a loudspeaker to pass through the window, so everyone in the 50 person + waiting room can hear what he is saying very clearly.

    The renunciant has his back to the room, facing the teller window, and since it is a small space if you are near the front you can hear everything he is saying.  In addition he must speak loudly to make himself heard through the window.

    To me both times I experienced it, it was the same feeling as being up on a pedestal on display.  Especially since the room is full of good people who probably never heard of FATCA (yet) and are mystified and dismayed at what you are doing.

22. @freeatlast;

    Thank you for sharing your experiences with all of us. It is beyond despicable that you were treated that way for exercising your legal right to relinquish/renounce/choose citizenship. And what were they thinking of by allowing it to be witnessed by the whole waiting room? An object lesson to discourage others? The ‘scarlet letter’ (R for Renunciant) public shaming? And refusing to provide copies or any record of the event?

    Will they now start to require renunciants to be interviewed and approved by the IRS first – before appearing before a consular official? What a shameful abuse of power by a bully in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 15 (2) “No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality“” http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a13

    If the State department and the IRS, and US politicians continue to act and speak and treat those of us ‘abroad’ this way, it may be that they are providing enough evidence to condemn themselves – it is obvious that we have already been pre-judged and sentenced as guilty – without a fair or due process, trial or hearing – by the ‘land of the free’.

23. since when did the US care about human rights.

    perhaps in 1940, but that’s over now.

24. @freeatlast.  OMG that is awful.  I’ll second Arrow’s speculation as to whether the vice consul you got is an expat Stasi or KGB operative with a new career.  Maybe DHS is hiring some of them as border guards too, from a couple of stories I’ve heard about border crossings lately.

    Console yourself that you have your CLN now and are truly free at last.  On balance, the quick turnaround probably makes the awful experience worthwhile, but obviously you’re the best judge of that.

25. further observation about freeatlast’s report:

    I find it encouraging (for some people I’m helping anyway) that, after freeatlast signed the renunciation oath, the vice consul said “You’re no longer an American, I can not help you.”  moot point now freeatlast has the CLN, but others please note, this reinforces something I know one or two relinquishants have been told also, namely once you handed over the signed oath, as far as State is concerned you are no longer a US citizen, the CLN in the mail is a mere formality (this is reinforced by the dating of the CLN, which will be the date of the renunciation oath or the date you committed your expatriating act if you relinquished).  Everyone keep that in mind if and when your banker or investment broker asks for a signed statement as to whether you’re a US citizen.  You aren’t a US citizen any longer, once you’ve signed either of those oaths, and you are telling the absolute truth if you swear to that under oath or on a document in front of your banker or broker.  So IRS and FATCA can “go fish” (I’m being very polite for me in that choice of words …)

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