Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@EmBee. While I understand your resentment and anger (share it, actually) in order to do that the US government would have to re-negotiate the treaty. That’s because under the treaty the two governments have agreed that they will each tax government pensions only in the country of residence. Can’t see that happening anytime soon, if ever.
Interestingly, if you are a USC receiving SS who lives in Canada, when you file your US tax return (if you bother, that is) you declare your SS payments, then write in a big fat zero on the next line where it asks for the taxable amount. That’s also the reason there is nothing withheld if you receive your SS benefit in Canada. Each year SS sends a questionnaire to recipients asking if there is any change in their circumstances that would affect their benefit amount. One of the questions asks about citizenship. When I reported losing US citizenship it caused no response and not even a blip on the benefit stream. Now if you reported you became a citizen of Iran, things might be different…..
@ maz57
The resentment goes very deep with me. The USA is a notorious treaty breaker and it doesn’t negotiate, it dictates. I want nothing to do with them and all is not tickety-boo between me and the Canadian government either after the FATCA betrayal. Thankfully most of the time I just keep all that way back on the burner while I keep on keeping on.
Normally I would not have a glass of wine this early… but today is special!
2:00 PM: I sent my wife’s last tax return to Austin (1040NR-Return, 1040-Statement, 1040Schedule1, 1040Schedule6, 1040ScheduleB, 2555EZ, 8965, 8938, 8854) and a copy of the 8854 to Philadelphia. I used Canada Post XpressPost with tracking and no signature (2 x 27.75 CAD = 55.50 CAD).
3:00 PM: I filed my wife’s last FBAR.
We’re DONE!!!!
@Formerpatriot, CONGRATULATIONS! Definitely worth an early tipple.
@ Formerpatriot
Good news and reading this special type brightens my day too! Enjoy the wine at anytime … she’s free and so are you.
@EmBee.
Yup, we’re definitely on the same page in that regard. I look at the SS payments as compensation owed for the pain and suffering they have inflicted on me, you, and thousands like us over the years.
Same with lying to financial institutions. Lies are what they deserve for covering their own asses instead of looking out for the interests of their customers. If I ever figure out a good way to get even with our own government to punish them for their part in this treachery I’ll let you know. (Actually one way is to live a long, long time and collect a massive amount of benefits before we finally check out.)
The warmer months of the year I mostly spend my time doing lots of fun things and don’t spend much time thinking about US tax/FATCA/IGA/Charter violations. Stuck in the middle of a deep freeze I tend to sit in front of the computer and get more cranky the more I think about it. Not healthy….time to take the dog for a walk.
‘On the USCIS web site it says
“Use Form I-407 to let us know that you have decided voluntarily to abandon your status as a lawful permanent resident (LPR) of the United States.”.
I have never decided to “voluntarily” abandon my status. A grumpy border agent grabbed it from me and told me I was no longer a permanent resident of the US.’
And after it was grabbed, you’ve never had and never will have the capability to voluntarily abandon it no matter what you want or try to do. If you’re stuck with the famous US tax citizenship which applies to non former citizens as much as it does to former citizens, you have no way whatsoever to get rid of that status.
“Each year SS sends a questionnaire to recipients asking if there is any change in their circumstances that would affect their benefit amount. One of the questions asks about citizenship.”
The SS asks about citizenship not residence? It doesn’t sound like they could make correct determinations that way.
“By virtue of non-citizenship, any such person is immune to FATCA and can stay fully out of the US tax system. (Usual caveat about US assets etc. applies.)”
WHAT!?!?
You are forgetting that US Persons are reported under FATCA. Don indefinately, maybe, but they are reported for at least the year after they retun. And once that data is is shared, they lose all control of how it is used and by whom.
Dude. Calm down. If a green card holder never indicated US person status to the bank (and by definition do not have US birthplace) then no FATCA reporting.
But presumably they were at one time in the US tax system so I should have said no need to re-enter.
@Norman:
“And after it [the Green Card] was grabbed, you’ve never had and never will have the capability to voluntarily abandon it no matter what you want or try to do. If you’re stuck with the famous US tax citizenship which applies to non former citizens as much as it does to former citizens, you have no way whatsoever to get rid of that status”.
I doubt very much (and I mean VERY much) that some IRS worker would pull out my file and say “Oh look! This Canadian dude has not filed a US tax return for more than 25 years! Let’s go after him!”
Problem is, there are countries such as Japan and others that gave been reported where this information is incorporated in one’s national ID system and is thus there for FIs to access.
‘I doubt very much (and I mean VERY much) that some IRS worker would pull out my file and say “Oh look! This Canadian dude has not filed a US tax return for more than 25 years! Let’s go after him!”’
I doubt it too. Even if they find that they owe you money and they need to penalize you to cover up the facts, they’ll probably just invoke a statute of limitations on the money they owe you. However, if they automate some relevant penalizing system, you might get caught.
However, I was just pointing out that the law is absurd in one more way which we hadn’t noticed earlier.
I wonder if Japan’s “My Number” system includes records of when the “Me” of the “My Number” had a long term residence status in another country. If the person is a Japanese citizen then it seems they would have to do so. In my case they know a Canadian citizen reported he will move to Canada and in my wife’s case they know a Klingon[*] citizen reported she will move to Canada, but they don’t know her type of visa in Canada. And they don’t know if we were lying on our reports.
By the way our city hall most recently told us that if we resume residence in Japan in the future, our “My Number” numbers will be the same as before. The numbers get invalidated when we leave Japan but get reincanated if we return. I wonder if that happens to Japanese citizens.
I wonder what our residence will be between the time we leave our apartment and the time we find a new residence. The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled that everyone has a residence and some people have multiple residences. For a short time we will be physically present in a country that doesn’t consider us residents, so I guess we will be residents of Canada before we even enter Canada.
[* Are Klingons more alien than Canadians? Anyone know?]
I do not know the mechnism, but there is evidence of its existsnce, but governments do exchange information on what anther country’s citizens are doing in their borders. A while ago, it was reported that a Japanese businessman was denied entry to Japan. He had taken citizenship in an European country. Japan, not allowing dual nationality (except for minors) and he not obtaining a visa, denied his entry. There ws a court case in Japan over it, but for our discussion, the important point is, how did Japan know he became a naturalized citizen of another country?
Through out my adult life I have read of many situations that make it apparent that countries do share such information. What, how much, on who and to whom, I do not know, but it seems they do. Not universal as I know many dual US/Japanse citizens. They, however, were born in the US to Japanese parents and “returned” with them. They are all adults now but still have both passports.
As for Japanese moving abroad, no need to suspend their My Number a they will still have bank accounts in Japan and one way or another be paying into the national health care and pension systems. Japan believes that they will return.
“[* Are Klingons more alien than Canadians? Anyone know?]”
You know the answer to that. Yes, of course they are. It is mch easier to get a visa from some coutries than others. Easy to renew too. Different treatment by police is often reported.
@ND.
“The SS asks about citizenship not residence? It doesn’t sound like they could make correct determinations that way.”
They already know where I live because I replied to their mail. I think they are mostly interested in whether I became a N. Korean citizen since the last questionnaire in which case they would have to discontinue benefits. (They basically tell you to not do something like that.)
Another question asks if I moved or changed address. They want to make damn sure I receive that money and will be able to reply to next years questionnaire. I suppose it would be easy to lie. I know it sounds like a hell of a way to do business and it would be easy to scam them, but its their system and its not my place to criticize it. SSA is not like the IRS which is in the business of collecting money. They aren’t stingy and vindictive like the IRS. SSA is in the business of handing money out and I have to say they do a pretty good job of it.
@Formerpatriot.
“Normally I would not have a glass of wine this early… but today is special!
2:00 PM: I sent my wife’s last tax return to Austin (1040NR-Return, 1040-Statement, 1040Schedule1, 1040Schedule6, 1040ScheduleB, 2555EZ, 8965, 8938, 8854) and a copy of the 8854 to Philadelphia. I used Canada Post XpressPost with tracking and no signature (2 x 27.75 CAD = 55.50 CAD).
3:00 PM: I filed my wife’s last FBAR.
We’re DONE!!!!”
Well done, indeed! My congratulations as well! I’m predicting you will never hear from the IRS again (not that you ever heard much from them in the first place).
None of my business but I’m curious if you sent them that last 170 bucks or if in the end you figured out a way to avoid it? I’m sure that will be the sweetest glass of wine you have ever enjoyed.
“Japan, not allowing dual nationality (except for minors)”
(and murderers (Fujimori))
“As for Japanese moving abroad, no need to suspend their My Number a they will still have bank accounts in Japan”
So will I, though it will be restricted. While living in Japan I can view the status of my accounts in Canada and the US, but while living in Canada I will not be able to view the status of my account in Japan.
“and one way or another be paying into the national health care and pension systems.”
I don’t think so, if they’re living abroad.
“The SS asks about citizenship not residence? It doesn’t sound like they could make correct determinations that way.”
‘They already know where I live because I replied to their mail. I think they are mostly interested in whether I became a N. Korean citizen since the last questionnaire in which case they would have to discontinue benefits.’
I think they might discontinue benefits if you become a North Korean resident, but I doubt they could do it on the basis of citizenship.
Japan annexed Korea for part of the 20th century and turned Koreans into second-class Japanese citizens. After the war, Japan stripped those people of their second-class Japanese citizenship. They had to tell Japan whether they chose North Korean or South Korean citizenship. For a variety of reasons a lot of them chose North. Their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren inherit North Korean citizenship. Now, suppose a US citizen and North Korean citizen have a baby in Japan. Unless the baby renounces US citizenship, it could move to the US and become eligible for SS. Later it could choose to move to North Korea. SS could seize benefits on account of the change of residence, but citizenship would not be a factor.
“Another question asks if I moved or changed address.”
Good news. Somewhat. But when I tried to report my move in 2016, they wouldn’t let me. Someone who is receiving SS benefits can report the move directly to SS. Otherwise, SS only accepts new addresses that are reported on US tax returns. I don’t submit US tax returns any more. So SS mails annual statements to my old address, Japan Post no longer forwards them, and Japan Post returns them to Panama (PA) or Moldova (MD) depending on the return address on SS’s envelopes.
@maz57:
“None of my business but I’m curious if you sent them that last 170 bucks or if in the end you figured out a way to avoid it?”
Yes, we paid the $171 US. And the “Convenience fee” of $3.35 US charged by the online service. The $171 US tax was the 10% income tax on the $1723 US interest earned in a TFSA. No way to cover it with a Form 1116 since my wife did not pay tax to Canada on this income. No personal exemption this year thanks to Trump. No standard deduction possible for the dual status year. No point in paying an accountant $350 so that he can find a way to save us $171. Of course we could have lied and not mention the $1723 interest income. But I chose not to do that for a few reasons, including: (a) it would have been inconsistent with what we reported in previous years; (b) since we were always 100% honest regarding her US tax situation, I did not want to “go rogue” on the very last return just for a few dollars. I know that some people here might think we were crazy to send the IRS some money that they do not deserve but I was so happy to be done with this final tax return (and 8854, and FBAR) that the $171 was sent without any resentment. I should not say “we were crazy”, I should say “I was crazy”. My wife is very busy at work these days and I pretty much did all this tax stuff on my own. If someone is crazy, it’s me, not her.
If you consider the $171 to be the cost of getting the stalker out of your life forever its money well spent. It was probably a good idea to not suddenly “forget” that Tax Free after reporting it in previous years.
Don’t worry, your sanity will slowly return but not for a while because you still have Canadian tax season coming up to look forward to! Just joking. Enjoy your well earned peace of mind.
“Dude. Calm down. If a green card holder never indicated US person status to the bank (and by definition do not have US birthplace) then no FATCA reporting.”
First, most who have a green card are very happy to have it. They are known to proudly proclaim the fact that they have one. The do not know of any possible problem that could arise from having one. In many countries, it is an important item on the CV.
We at Brock and the other places focusing on these issues are such a small percentage of the people affected by FATCA, CBT, FBAR that I wonder if we are even statistically relevant. Nobody knows to keep such things secret.
Indeed, we should keep it secret that such things can be kept secret, because then our secret will be safe. I shall speak of this no further.
“Indeed, we should keep it secret that such things can be kept secret, because then our secret will be safe. I shall speak of this no further.”
I’d rather more people knew, for if they did, those who have a green card would learn to hide that fact and those who wished for one would learn it is not a good idea to have one.